23 replies to this topic

[HaSY]

just want to find out about its effectiveness in actual combat...
is it a good weapon?
why it was replaced by spear,qiang?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I suppose the dagger polearms you're referring to "Ji 戟"..

[Yun]

Are you referring to the simple dagger-axe (ge 戈), the composite dagger-axe halberd (ji 戟), or both?

Regarding the decline of the halberd in the Age of Fragmentation, the simple answer is that lances are more useful for cavalry in a massed charge, and spears are more useful for infantry in repelling a massed cavalry charge, especially when the cavalry is heavily-armoured. The means of killing your enemy was no longer to hook him off his horse, but to thrust your spear through him.

[RollingWave]

Yun, but wasn't Ge and Ji usable in a downward swinging action? which i would assume could punch through most armor from the weight etc....

[HaSY]

oops....it's ji i mean

[Yun]

Yun, but wasn't Ge and Ji usable in a downward swinging action? which i would assume could punch through most armor from the weight etc....

I guess it takes quite a bit of strength to lift one's ji high enough and then whack it downwards hard enough to pierce the armour of someone riding on a horse - besides, you'd be in a packed infantry formation that makes movement quite restricted. Much more efficient just to point a long spear out along with all your mates and let the enemy ride onto it. The utility of ge or ji in the Warring States, Qin and Han lay in the primarily skirmishing role of chariots and light cavalry - if they came near enough while shooting arrows at you, you could just hook the riders off. When facing massed cavalry charges, on the other hand, the horizontal blade of the ji became just so much additional weight, and also a limit on how long spears could get (swinging a long pole sideways at high speed is quite difficult).

[RollingWave]

Hmmm good point... i was only thinking about swinging at another person on the ground, forgetting the height difference... and i can see why hooking someone from a horse is not nearly as easy as from another chariot...

But I read that even though Ge and ji gets the most meantion, even from the time of Shang Mao or spear has never cease to be a major part of any army... so how exactly was the transition from Ji to Mao, if Mao was obviously better why did the transition seem to take all of Han dynasty to make? or was Ji still a formidable weapon when used on horseback?

[Wujiang]

The Ji is mainly a infantry weapon. It is great for fighting against both infantry and cavalry units.

For fighting against infantry, the Ji units must work alongside sword units. If the person is able to stab the opponent and kill him there and then, well thats the end of the story. But if they happen to miss, then the dagger part which sticks out to the side of the weapon would simple hold them at weapons length. if there are two Ji users it would be even better as this would hold them in place in which the sword unit would come in and make the kill by either attacking from behind or having the Ji units control the enemy's movements so to work in the sword unit's favor to fight i.e, pushing him away when he is about to strike while holding him in place when your own partner strikes. Another combination is for one Ji user to hold him in place by pushing in (in which the opponent would need to push back or fall over) while another would use the same technique to push away the opponent's Ji. There is a need for team work in this which is why the nessessity for the superior numbers in which is based on the military planning.

For one on one techniques, it would mainly come inthe form of Swing (allow the enemy to block with whatever they are using), Hook down the blocking weapon and stab.

For fighting against cavalry and chariots, the techiqnues are even simpler. Simply point the pointy end incoming charge and secure the other end on the ground of which the charge itself would either kill the horse or the one riding it (for cavalry only). Failing that, just put the Ji horizontally across the path of the horseman or the charioteer in which his advance would automatically lead him to get hooked by the dagger part. Braise yourself and pull him off his horse. if you are lucky, you might even be able to hook him across his neck in which the inner blade of the dagger would have slit his throat. Notice that cavalry does not have heavy armour to protect their necks.

[ih8eurocentrix]

i thought it was used by the front men of a formation like a spear to hold off the enemy while the next line behind use it as a axe swinging down on the heads of enemy,,

[Kenneth]

If it's a dagger axe, then I would say. YES. It was effective.
They used them for over a thousand years after all.
There are a couple of discussions on them here and elsewhere.
Useage against chariots, or from chariots. The wide arc that allows striking...the ability to hook or hold as somebody just mentioned.
I'm sure they were handy enough for the job!

This had good images of typical examples.

http://forums.swordf...&threadid=44473

This covers the weapons use a bit more. (sorry, I still consider a Ji a one piece cast...otherwise my eyes see a 1 Ge & 1 Spear hafted together on one pole. I might technically be wrong about the name of the two piece weapon...but a true one piece Ji is a later creation. Perhaps another question for my peers.)

http://www.chinahist...opic=1836&st=15

[Kenneth]

I also dont consider it an armour piercing weapon AT ALL. Although the blunt point examples had a sturdier point the blades are always thin and striking metal to metal is not ideal...as the blade may well give way before the armour.
WHy not hook and cut the tendons of the armoured mans ankle? Some clearly can produce a dragging cut inside the hook....so I see the point going for everything BUT the armour.
A fully armoured man could be hooked by a unit and dragged down with luck.
As somebody just said, a swordsman might close in for the kill.
Perhaps this is when the close defense weapons/short bladed swords carried by the polemen themselves might be nimble enough to find the joints in the armour, much like a dismounted medieval knight a dagger stuck in between the plates then wriggled around in the flesh can ruin your whole day.

[TMPikachu]

I always thought it was an armor piercing weapon. It's got a dagger-ish head. All of the force of a swing, magnified by the length of the piole, coming down on one point.

I guess it depends on how thick or thin the blade is.

[Sephodwyrm]

Probably useful for charioteers charging at top speed and swinging against infantry opponents like polo. Also, the Ge is useful because it allows an infantry formation to have a sideways attack. It is probably more useful when used in tandem with other weapons.

[TMPikachu]

so, would they have been fielded in mixed weapons teams? Or would it be more like 'block of swordsman'+'block of spearmen'

[Wujiang]

It is unlikely that the Ji would have been used as a sideways attacking weapon. There are two reasons behind this. First is the length is the average ge or ji. It is much too long and the attacking point is much too short for it to be an accurate swinging weapon. Unlike and Yue (axe) or a Dadao from the future which has a big cutting area and a relatively shorter pole (ok, not that much shorter), ji and ge has this petite dagger point which means that you need to be VERY accurate in terms of judgeing the distance between yourself and your opponent for that swing. Your average soldier in a chaotic battlefield situation means it is unlikely. Besides, with that length, a sideways swing means you may very well be hitting your own men which just happens to be in the swing path.

For charioteers, because of the chariot being in constant motion, the dagger part, one stuck in an enemies body would be likely to stay there. Because of the length of the weapon and the fact the chariot is in motion, it is much more difficuit for you to pull it out as you can't use your body for draw strength on, only your arms. So if you actually swung it and hit someone sqaure in the chest, you would be dragging him along for the ride rendering your weapon useless for the next attack.

For swinging attacks, I think that Ji would have used it's pole area to strike. Once the strike took place, if your opponent gets hit, you pull the weapon back in drag him to the floor. If he blocks you, you still pull the weapon to pull down his weapon which opens him up for a thrust from the point.

Point to note that during the Warring states, there is a smaller version of the ge which can be used with one hand (being only a foot or two long) that can act is a swinging weapon. It was used mainly for charioteers whose enemy have gotten too close.