68 replies to this topic

[Liang Jieming]

The use of a flexible sword which was kept wrapped about the waist is also mentioned, I believe, in the Indian martial art Kalaripayattu which means “the way of the battlefield” which is still practiced in the state of Kerala.

[Grigori]

I think you could make a sword that flex around the waist if the cross section is very thin and slightly convex. It would be a pretty lousy weapons though, not being able to cut or stab well. If it was made at all it would have very limited application, and certainly did not represent the norm. I'd much rather conceal carry a long knife than a "belt sword".

All swords should flex somewhat, some more than others. The differentially hardened Japanese swords for example did not flex well and were prone to take a set. Earlier Chinese swords were made the same way but later seem to use a differential tempering heat treatment which should give it some flex much like swords of most other cultures.

[Grigori]

Reproductions of two Tang dynasty swords. I believe the originals were preserved by the Japanese, which is why they're still around to be examined in detail.

[Liang Jieming]

Here's what I found on the bendy Indian sword called either a Chuttuval or a Urumi.

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Chuttuval (flexible sword)

This is called as Urumi in the northern system. It is a flexible band of steel measuring in length from the fingertip of one hand to the finger tip of the other hand when the hands are held outstretched to the sides and1 to 2 inches wide. Here agility and mental sharpness counts more than strength or aggression. Twirling and controlling urumi is an art by itself possible only for those who spend long hours in the kalari. One false movement can slash the eyes, calves and many other parts of the practitioner. This one calls for utmost concentration even from the expert trainees. Some times two blades are attached to the handle so that the urumi can be made more lethal. If used in a crowded situation when attacked by multiple opponents, the urumi can save the dedicated kalari student by inflicting heavy injuries to the aggressors. Urumi has another advantage – this weapon can be worn like a waist belt and can be drawn when demanded.
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BTW, nice pictures! Makes me want one too!

[CARDINAL009]

Here's what I found on the bendy Indian sword called either a Chuttuval or a Urumi.

*******
Chuttuval (flexible sword)

This is called as Urumi in the northern system. It is a flexible band of steel measuring in length from the fingertip of one hand to the finger tip of the other hand when the hands are held outstretched to the sides and1 to 2 inches wide. Here agility and mental sharpness counts more than strength or aggression. Twirling and controlling urumi is an art by itself possible only for those who spend long hours in the kalari. One false movement can slash the eyes, calves and many other parts of the practitioner. This one calls for utmost concentration even from the expert trainees. Some times two blades are attached to the handle so that the urumi can be made more lethal. If used in a crowded situation when attacked by multiple opponents, the urumi can save the dedicated kalari student by inflicting heavy injuries to the aggressors. Urumi has another advantage – this weapon can be worn like a waist belt and can be drawn when demanded.
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BTW, nice pictures!  Makes me want one too!

Q: Have you tried to play w/ the Urumi blade?

[Lexx]

I just registered to add something, but someone seems to have beat me to it. First of all, I'm not a historian or any kind of expert on swords. I just wanted to throw in the idea that (whether historically correct or not), it wouldn't be such a stupid idea for the police or soldiers to be issued 'bendy swords' for controlling civilians.

Can you imagine in a few hundred years time, people saying "no, the British/US police wouldn't have used wooden battons, they'd have used guns."

I'm sure the swordsmen (the soldiers/police) would have been skilled in the use of rigid blades for killing, so they would have been able to use bendy swords effectively for dealing with violent mobs and criminals. I'm fairly sure that, at a push, they'd be capable of a leathal slash to the throat if required.

I practice with sai, which were effective as a defensive weapon, but also used by police to control civilians in a non-lethal way (much the same as todays police batons). I've had people say to me "what's the point of a blunt knife?" Of course, the Sai isn't a knife although sharing some characteristcs of one, but it's primary purpose was often to disable rather than kill.

As for movies, I think the 'wire fu' has become very advanced and impressive and will go through a phase of being over-used, before settling down to an effect used more sparingly once the novelty has worn off. I thought the 'running through the trees' scenes in Flying Daggers was fantastic, and was used well in that film, though I wouldn't want to see it in every martial arts film.

Right, I'm sorry for the length of this post. In short, I'm just saying that whether 'bendy swords' were ever actually used practically or not, it wouldn't have been such a stupid idea to issue them to swordsmen for non-lethal policing of civilians - just like it's not stupid to issue todays police with rubber koshes and wooden battons.

Hello to you all too. I've just read this entire thread and found it interesting and enlightening. I think the ones who like the fairy tale martial arts movies, that's fine. To the ones who ferociously defend the old traditions and don't want to see them lost - I'm right behind you too. I don't really see a conflict. It's important to have the checks and balances though.

Peace.

[Kenneth]

I'm just saying that whether 'bendy swords' were ever actually used practically or not, it wouldn't have been such a stupid idea to issue them to swordsmen for non-lethal policing of civilians - just like it's not stupid to issue todays police with rubber koshes and wooden battons.

That makes no sense. Why give police 'bendy swords' at all? We dont hear of it in the late dynasties so why assume they ever existed or would even be more useful than what actually existed?
It is quite possible to pummel people with fist or flat of swords or hilt or weapon butts without cutting off heads accidentely. You dont even have to draw a sword but it would make sense to match force with force. If the other persons draw a sword the police dont want lame 'bendy' swords in hand.
The 'bendy' sword is modern training tool and movie fantasy. Find one reference in the masses of literature to one historically, or better yet find on example from any dynasty existing in a collection or museum. It you cant find either then you can just as easily say Abraham Lincoln was a woman since we dont have a picture of him with no pants on.
It is not a historical weapon, plain and simple.
Nothing wrong with simple musing, but 'what ifs' should at least make partial sense and proof requires finding a historical example.
Since I train with these 'bendy' swords I can assure you they would be more useless for restraining people than an open hand slap because they have no mass.
A flick with a wet tea towel would scare me more (becuase that can cause welts at least). These swords show their purpose when you swing it around and clip yourself though. No flesh wounds.
They have a place, but it is not in history.

[CARDINAL009]

Most implements can be effective as a (offensive or defensive) weapon

Its effectiveness depends on the general circumstance and the power dished out by the implementers.

However, give me a real hard body straight sword to play with.

[Kenneth]

Most implements can be effective as a (offensive or defensive) weapon

Yep, like the wet tea towel I mentioned.

[Glaive]

"when i watch the documentary of chinese martial arts,it is obvious that this chinese jian is very flexible and seems light to be handle...
my question is
1.can today's chinese martial arts weapon like i mentioned above kills?
(look like alumium/plastic weapon to me)"

Hasy I could kill you with a cheerleader's alumium baton with no trouble at all,the gurka killed with sticks even in WWII.It's very easy to kill if you have the knowledge of anatomy and have killed enough not to hesitate because of false pity.

Keneth my sifu taught me that some of the blocks he taught me would break your wrist if used in actual combat-so evasion is preferable to blocking.

[Kenneth]

Keneth my sifu taught me that some of the blocks he taught me would break your wrist if used in actual combat-so evasion is preferable to blocking.

I have no idea why you mention this. All I said is that type of sword is not a weapon. But yes, evade instead of block. That is quite universal to martial arts after all. Do not rely on blocking with strength because the stronger man wins (or the weapon)..so redirect the force. This is almost universal to martial arts.
There are a few examples I have seen where student are told to form a X with arms to stop a weapon or to block in such a way that the bone 'chips instead of breaks' Whoopee . It looked like macho nonsense to me. Better off not to be where the force lands, or shift the body..that is much more instinctual anyway. Bone on bone isnt cool.

Back on topic...the question is are the 'bendy' swords real? The concensus amongst Chinese martial artists who have real interest in Chinese swords or weapons history is NO. End of story. A historical example does not exist.


If you sharpened one up and slashed at people, yes, you could cut with optimum angles. Even paper can cut flesh. I would almost rather have no weapon than try and use it in combat though. I came home and took another look at my wushu sword. Yeah, it might cut if I sharpen it up real good but it would be flesh wounds only. I want a sword that will cleave bone and hack open heads!
Jet Li cleaving apart shields with his wobbly sword in Hero. Sigh. The idea anything can be a weapon is delightfully philospohical but irrelevant to whether it really is a historical weapon.

I could find items in the kitchen drawer that would give you more confidence in combat.
Movies like Hero and Crouching Tiger are to blame. A friend of mine from overseas was viewing my Chinese weapons a couple of days ago and he said 'what about those bendy swords the Chinese had too?'

Wuxia is a mixed blessing for Chinese culture.

Edited by Kenneth, 06 January 2006 - 12:26 AM.

[Ta-ts'in Centurion]

Well, you see...foil weapons are not really good...for anything. I mean, how do you stab when your blade bends at a touch?

If you're talking about a Western fencing foil (fleuret; floretto), then you must recognize that it IS good--as a training tool. That's all it is meant to be. For real combat, a Western fencer would use a smallsword or duelling epee (epee de combat; spada de duello). Both are much stiffer than a foil.

Real Chinese swords do not bend. They are not made of foil.

No sword is "made of foil".

[Ta-ts'in Centurion]

Something I have never understood.

When talking about Chinese Martial Arts, why do people ALWAYS look to the PRC invented wushu first and then to movies second ? Seriously, neither of them are indeed sources for traditional chinese martial arts in any sense of the word. Even if one is not a martial artist one can easily see that these are not historical sources.

For the first, if anyone knows anything about CMA in china, they would know it practically went extinct after the cultural revolution. And they invented this new system for performance and health reasons. Not for fighting. Only shadows of the old arts remain in areas like Hong Kong, US and Southeast Asia for those lucky enoguh to have escaped. But even those are getting squeezed out by the modern trend of sterotyping and market demand.

Why people ? why why why ????

Wujiang, you just answered your own question.

The reason why folks look to modern performance-art wushu and hokey kung-fu movies with flying swordsmen is because "Only shadows of the old arts remain"--especially in terms of weapons usage.

Until I began discussing these issues with Scott Rodell and other knowledgable folks at Swordforum, I was convinced that bonafide Chinese swordsmanship was dead. It's good to know that Rodell and others are doing their best to keep these methods alive, but the overall state of affairs is still a pretty sad one.

As for movies, one has to wonder why Chinese martial arts cinema is so obsessed with the utterly fantastic and ridiculous. It is interesting to compare movies like Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon with classic kenjutsu epics like Seven Samurai. In the former, we have all of the absurdities we've come to expect from CMA films--flying swordsmen and wierdly choreographed fights that have no basis in reality. In the latter, we have a much more "stripped down" approach, that is arguably not as entertaining for the layman, but is nonetheless far more realistic. Take, for example, the classic standoff between the "expert fencer" samurai and the boisterous samurai in Seven Samurai--the action is pretty minimal, and consists of a shout, a charge, a side-step, and a cut--that's all.

Edited by Ta-ts'in Centurion, 11 January 2006 - 02:17 PM.

[Ta-ts'in Centurion]

Actually, I have a question....
How much emphasis is put on blocking sword strikes with a sword in real application?

I assume like any sensible from, evasion is first and most desirable, and blocking comes second.....but in sword combat roughly what emphasis is qiven to countering with your own blade?
i.e; 80% evasion 20% blocking?

I am curious because just like heavy blocking with limbs can result in injury in what way is a sword block correctly practiced?, and is the risk of weapon damage noted in this?
Certainly ancient swordsmen would not want to clash swords directly.

Any thoughts?

It really depends on the weapon and swordfighting method in question.

Blade contact does not appear to be as common in Asian methods of swordplay for one very good reason--Asian swords are typically differentially heat-treated, with a very hard cutting edge and a comparatively soft back. Blade contact can result in a chipped edge or a blade that is bent out-of-line and has taken a "set".