68 replies to this topic

[Kenneth]

I would say over the top kung-fu IS mainland Chinese cinema. Turn on a telly in PRC or ROC and there are still plenty of backflips and leaping over houses. Of course Wuxia is made for Chinese first.
I think if it is a fantasy setting, fine. Like Chinese Ghost story or slap stick comedies....but actual grim battles of swordsmen are pretty rare. I love the over the top stuff too, but I do hunger for some serious business.
Jet Li's 'unleashed' movie was blasted by some Chinese for the imagery of a Chinese with a dogs collar on (they have the problem & not Jet Li obviously!) He believed in the project since he produced it also, it wasn't perfect but it was DIFFERENT in several ways. Good on him. Seeing Wushu applications with more street fighting relevance was a nice change. No pretty postures...just quick brutal snap, break & hurt.
I still like Wuxia, but it is a mixed blessing.

For the first, if anyone knows anything about CMA in china, they would know it practically went extinct after the cultural revolution. And they invented this new system for performance and health reasons. Not for fighting. Only shadows of the old arts remain in areas like Hong Kong, US and Southeast Asia for those lucky enoguh to have escaped. But even those are getting squeezed out by the modern trend of sterotyping and market demand.

Wujiang! I said the same thing and had my head bit off by a member in China who is learning Wushu from a 'real master' (or so he claimed). It must be easier to say it if you are Chinese...yet what you say is quite true of course.
Wushu (as understood in modern PRC) is the national form of competition and mainstream example & it is a struggle to even see the apllications in form to fighting reality. I can see some applications here and there from ROC texts on Kung Fu where they are explained, or even some kata self defense, but for the main I have to visualise my own applications when training. This is how I was taught to train kata (imagine a martial apllication), but if Wushu doesnt include this in forms as standard then it is beautiful but hollow. Acrobatic, incredible, impressive....but more like a form of dance.
That is from my own experiences training with 2 different Chinese run schools. It is quite standardised and only a shadow of a ''War Art''. I really like it though!...but don't claim it is something that it is not.

[Kediren]

1.can today's chinese martial arts weapon like i mentioned above kills?
(look like alumium/plastic weapon to me)

jup..

you can kill a people by sword without a chinese martial arts..

2.is this chinese jian easy to broken?
(know this from a documentary that says that Japanese adopted katana as their Chinese jian is easy to broken)

Yes.. if a katana are maked/"swing" better as jian.. (quality of steel, knowledge of users)

A Sword from that the Katana developed came from ancient China.

Katana was developmend by japanese..

http://en.wikipedia...._Japanese_sword

Edited by Kediren, 11 January 2006 - 05:08 PM.

[TMPikachu]

I would say over the top kung-fu IS mainland Chinese cinema. Turn on a telly in PRC or ROC and there are still plenty of backflips and leaping over houses. Of course Wuxia is made for Chinese first.
I think if it is a fantasy setting, fine. Like Chinese Ghost story or slap stick comedies....but actual grim battles of swordsmen are pretty rare. I love the over the top stuff too, but I do hunger for some serious business.
Jet Li's 'unleashed' movie was blasted by some Chinese for the imagery of a Chinese with a dogs collar on (they have the problem & not Jet Li obviously!) He believed in the project since he produced it also, it wasn't perfect but it was DIFFERENT in several ways. Good on him. Seeing Wushu applications with more street fighting relevance was a nice change. No pretty postures...just quick brutal snap, break & hurt.
I still like Wuxia, but it is a mixed blessing.

I'd say the weakness of the fights in that movie was that it wasn't brutal enough and still too flashy. The fighting's the same as in an old Jackie Chan movie.
Ong Bak is what the fighting should've more resembled. In general I don't think that movie was very good.


On Wushu again...
I guess the US version is highschool wrestling. Some people think that it's applicable in real fighting, but against somebody with, say, basic jiujitsu skills, the highschool wrestler is in a world of pain.

Edited by TMPikachu, 11 January 2006 - 05:53 PM.

[Kenneth]

I don't think this is entirely true. Some Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, and Baguazhang stylists in the mainland use real fighting applications and heavy, solid swords for forms.

I am not unaware of the diversity of styles in Kung Fu and practitioners still in PRC but I would consider them there DESPITE of the CCP and not because of it.
Modern Wushu is a 1950's CCP construct.
We need to recognise that what is advanced as 'Wushu' in China for national level competitions, standardised international forms, mainstream schooling and even most that comes to the West in media is only a 'modern Wushu' that was a construct to serve a new society. The true martial aspect was removed or diluted. I have met a number of people trained in China who have no connection to each other but the style they are taught is modern.
Chinese Wushu of the traditional forms is not extinct but it doesnt change that there was a active re-inventing of the role of Kung Fu for political purposes and this is what Chinese for the most will encounter. Tai Chi is alive and visible yet for 99% of the people who do morning excercises I doubt they do so to keep alive pure martial traditions.
For a true martial skill, ie training to kill as quickly & directly as possible without fuss & flair, I think you would be hard pressed to find any because of this. No doubt the knowledge is still existing in the PRC but most people find the schools attached to 'Shaolin temples' or via public schools and learn something more akin to Peking opera kung fu.
(actually even Peking opera was appropriated for the new society and only returned to tradition in modern times)

Edit; or to put it this way...for the average Chinese what would they encounter if they decide to learn Chinese Kung Fu?
Modern Wushu is reffered to as a 'national sport'. The harmless variety is the most accesible.

Edited by Kenneth, 11 January 2006 - 06:28 PM.

[Kenneth]

I would pit a good boxer against a traditional martial artist (karateka, kung-fu exponent, etc) any day of the week.

For one thing, the boxer actually knows what it's like to be hit, whereas so many TMAists don't.

There is a limited truth in this...I agree but it is limited. Where a martial artist who is adapt in distancing can work kicks against a boxer then the boxer is more limited in his tool kit. Some martial artists fight full contact after all and they have tricks a boxer is not meant to face.
I absolutely agree about the requirement of knowing what it is like to be hit..but some quite purist martial arts emphasise this too, and modern martial arts can incorporate boxing hands or full contact sparring too. This the the effect of Brude Lee no doubt. One of my early Karate instructors said straight out that boxing hands will beat Karate hands. It is basically true, yet your model falls down with the extent to which a martial artist CAN develop so many more weapons & options from their body.
I think with the sport focused or stylised elements of martial arts it means even a novice boxer will take such a MAists head off if we compare time for time training. The boxer knows heavy hitting and the 'kill' instinct and purely 'the business'. Efficient and focused to win. An excellent fist method. Somebody not used to this will be intimidated...people used to kumite get clipped in the head and wonder what is going on! MA punching air & line work is no substitute to this business end training......yet in those MA forms that work a more Muay Thai mix version of self defense we see boxing hands used, plus head butts, elbow strikes (nasty), knees, joint strikes (leg kicks of course) and longer ranged attacks and much much more vartiety in grappling situations (potentially combined with strikes).
Just to clarify my feelings....the 'modern' Wushu person I was meaning earlier could study for 2 years and get trounced by somebody with 2 months of boxing & heavy bag training....yet the 'self defense' and combat style martial artists in other stlyes can box too. I have seen how poorly a good, but pure, boxer steps up into kick boxing or ultimate fighting, if they havent developed a reflex to leg kicks they get caught, and the wrestler (like you said) can pick them up and drop them if they dont take his head off quick or know how to fight a 'martial arts' style. A boxer needs to learn new tricks. I always wince when I see people being caught by thigh kicks if they arent used to blocking or evading them. Ouch.
In terms of 'best' I always believe it comes down to the individual students skill & athleticism, schools only provide an avenue to train.
In general I agree that many MA havent taken on board the 'to learn to swim you must get into the water' that Bruce Lee mentioned but there are many many different focuses amongst schools and some of them are more purely a military style combat (even some few 'traditional' forms). I haven't seen many that could be traced to Kung Fu however, sadly. Not all students actually want to learn to maim either. It needs recognising there are elements to why people train at MA that may have little to do with oppurtunities to use it in violence. Fitness, feel good, social, personal challenge, psychology...That's not a cop out, but the focus of some schools can be quite divorced from their original roots....real combat. When mixing a MAist against a boxer then if you choose the right school then the boxer is not assured in your scenario!
These traditional military style students might face manslaughter charges if they even ever use their responses in self defense. The boxer is however great in his element...one on one & within his fisticuffs realm.

Edited by Kenneth, 12 January 2006 - 05:06 PM.

[Eric Her]

I practice wushu but the more I read this thread I find that me practicing with the flimsy modern wushu sword seems to be a major affront to all serious
sword afficionados who feel it is a misrepresentation of Chinese military culture. For this, I apologize if I'm propogating a tenaciously inaccurate myth of Chinese weaponry by doing what I really love, but I hold no illusions about how a real fight would carry itself out. But my interest has been piqued. I'm wondering - is practicing with the flimsy wushu sword absolutely detrimental to developing real martial skills later on? Especially someone who is broke and I could barely
afford the $40 I spent on the flimsy sword.

[Intranetusa]

If the TMA involves hard body trainning, both recieving and delivering, then it'll be fairly close to actual sparring and getting hit.