68 replies to this topic

[HaSY]

when i watch the documentary of chinese martial arts,it is obvious that this chinese jian is very flexible and seems light to be handle...
my question is
1.can today's chinese martial arts weapon like i mentioned above kills?
(look like alumium/plastic weapon to me)

2.is this chinese jian easy to broken?
(know this from a documentary that says that Japanese adopted katana as their Chinese jian is easy to broken)

[浪淘音]

when i watch the documentary of chinese martial arts,it is obvious that this chinese jian is very flexible and seems light to be handle...
my question is
1.can  today's chinese martial arts weapon like i mentioned above kills?
  (look like alumium/plastic weapon to me)

2.is this chinese jian easy to broken?
    (know this from a documentary that says that Japanese adopted katana as their Chinese jian is easy to broken)

okay no offense, but your question made me fly into a fit of rage as a Chinese swordsman myself

the Chinese Jian is not flexible, those are performance WuShu weapons or bad kung fu schools use them. I think i've mentioned this before directly to you.

stop watching kung fu movies





this sword above weighs 7 pounds and can punch through a car door, definitely not flexible

[Zuo Zongtang]

okay no offense, but your question made me fly into a fit of rage as a Chinese swordsman myself

the Chinese Jian is not flexible, those are performance WuShu weapons or bad kung fu schools use them. I think i've mentioned this before directly to you.

stop watching kung fu movies

Chill man, WuShu doesn't make the Jian terrible. They don't want their students to use actual swords when practicing. The masters don't want their student's heads lopped off by accident. A foil jian, spear, whatever is much safer. When you get to a very advanced level, then you get to practice with the real kind used in combat.

And all the kung fu movies I've watched have real weapons, not foils.

[浪淘音]

Chill man, WuShu doesn't make the Jian terrible. They don't want their students to use actual swords when practicing. The masters don't want their student's heads lopped off by accident. A foil jian, spear, whatever is much safer. When you get to a very advanced level, then you get to practice with the real kind used in combat.

And all the kung fu movies I've watched have real weapons, not foils.

btw, i didn't actually fly into a fit of rage but things dealing with "floppy Qing Era Chinese Jian" irk me quite alot

define "real weapons". most kung fu schools i see stainless steel false blades(look real, feel real, not real)

my school used carbon and/or combat steel live blades but we left them unsharpened for safety purposes. we used wooden replicas for fencing practice. 90% of "gong fu" schools don't have fencing exercises either

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today's "kung fu" is laughable anyway, i went to a seminar supposedly about Qi Men Jian Fa and the instructor not only clearly was teaching a bad version of it(probably not his fault since the forms were tainted long ago) but he got his history all wrong (Qi Men Jian is from General Qi, its military) yet he passed it off as "Northern Shaolin"

(the instructor showed a basic thrust and his empty hand was extended full in the opposite direction, making it easy for someone one the site to remove his arm quite easily. This is obviously a tainted form since General Qi's technique was essentially meant to fence against multiple opponents)

i'm very sensitive when it comes to Wu Gong (i don't use the term "kung fu" either) because real Chinese martial arts are on the verge of extinction especially in the sword and archery department. we don't need any more stereotypes

[HaSY]

that's ok........i mean no offense also

how heavy is the heaviest jian?
(if there is)

does that ancient chinese soldier have swordmanship mastery?
(do they have swordmanship training?)

do you know what is huet tik chi?

that jian that you post above is very nice......is it yours?

again...no offense.......

[RollingWave]

Hasy, from what i understand Jian, at least the longer versions used in martial arts were not very common on the battle field, most "Jian" on the battle field were more Roman gladius like short swords, while Dao (one edged blades) tend to be far more common (of course.. the definition of a dao is simply one edged.. so it obviously had a great variety)

Also putting a lot of the words in Chinese might be easier for use to understand, a lot of the direct translation are very hard to understand due to the different spelling ways and also due to the fact that it might come from different dialect, usually i don't suggest using it unless it's very commonly known people/place/things

[浪淘音]

that's ok........i mean no offense also

how heavy is the heaviest jian?
(if there is)

does that ancient chinese soldier have swordmanship mastery?
(do they have swordmanship training?)

do you know what is huet tik chi?

that jian that you post above is very nice......is it yours?

again...no offense.......

certain shuang shou jian 雙手劍 can be up to 7-8 pounds.

the dao (saber) adapted from the Nomads became popular during the later part of the Han dynasty, before that, all cavalrymen were equipped with a Jian as a sidearm and a polearm and bow/arrow as their main weapon

the "katana" blade (first developed in China) was a combination of the fencing accuracy of the Chinese straight Jian and the slashing power of the nomad saber in case you were curious

[Kenneth]

Entirely agreed on the comments 浪淘音 made on the modern Wushu blades.
It is lighter for training, but the bendiness also makes for sound and snap 'POW' when thrusting.
It is not a real weapon but now the Kung Fu movies use them too (i.e Hero etc.) and show a sword like this bend and yet cleave a shield in two.

I have heard commented before the modern Wushu style is not true Chinese swordmanship...It is atheletic, displined and incredible but certain strikes are quite flawed even if looking great aesthetically or dramatically. It certainly sacrifices a lot for the 'art' aspect....and even modern 'Shaolin' kung fu in the East is mainly modern invention with aspects of original excercise or form altered. Kung fu schools build on the periphery of a temple and then charge people to come learn 'Shaolin' form. SOme of it is directly like the monks excercise at (balance excercises and stances)...but even modern Shaolin is a post-cultural revolution construction.
A shame...but I learn what is on offer. I would never NEVER be able to work 99% of what I learn in modern Wushu into a real application...it is quite altered or simply fantasy.
Even in 'House of Flying Daggers' the big end fight degenerated into head butts and elbows by the exhausted combatants end. Funny how most stlyes that meet will have to end up getting back to basics. Direct, simple, not flowery. As one of my early instructors said "Keep it basic, all that form and complex technique will go out the window as soon as you get hit hard'' so all the spiraling and aerial grandoise stances will go out the window as soon as pain or fatigue sets in. Best to just knock them out, and try to avoid being knocked out.....rather than putting aesthetics in there for no purpose.
浪淘音 It you have found somebody who trains at real Kung Fu I envy you....

[Kenneth]

Actually, I have a question....
How much emphasis is put on blocking sword strikes with a sword in real application?

I assume like any sensible from, evasion is first and most desirable, and blocking comes second.....but in sword combat roughly what emphasis is qiven to countering with your own blade?
i.e; 80% evasion 20% blocking?

I am curious because just like heavy blocking with limbs can result in injury in what way is a sword block correctly practiced?, and is the risk of weapon damage noted in this?
Certainly ancient swordsmen would not want to clash swords directly.
Any thoughts?

[TMPikachu]

I don't think Hero had floppy blades.

well... in fencing... where the purpose is scoring (and it's not fatal) getting the attack is always important. But in real fighting, I wouldn't know

I can guess though.
evasion is sensible, but killing is first and desirable. I think it's also a bit of both, evasion and blocking. It's not one or the other, both are in tandem. Someone thrusts, I take a step back, move slightly to one side, while pressing the blade away from my body.
At least in fencing... when I block, it's not like their sword hits a wall, it is more like I press/beat my blade against theirs to change the angle it's coming in. I'm also moving my body, so minimal movement in both aspects combines for a good defense.

In mass combat though, there's not as much room for movement

I've also heard that Wushu was promoted by the CCP to keep the people from learning lethal combat styles. In certain times of Japan, karate forms were like that. A civilian form developed, while the government taught their troops a more lethal form.

[Wujiang]

Something I have never understood.

When talking about Chinese Martial Arts, why do people ALWAYS look to the PRC invented wushu first and then to movies second ? Seriously, neither of them are indeed sources for traditional chinese martial arts in any sense of the word. Even if one is not a martial artist one can easily see that these are not historical sources.

For the first, if anyone knows anything about CMA in china, they would know it practically went extinct after the cultural revolution. And they invented this new system for performance and health reasons. Not for fighting. Only shadows of the old arts remain in areas like Hong Kong, US and Southeast Asia for those lucky enoguh to have escaped. But even those are getting squeezed out by the modern trend of sterotyping and market demand.

As for the second, it is like looking at Rambo movies to see what the vietnam war was like and arnold movies to see what..... well..... just any US military is like. I honestly am baffled as to why people even attack those 'sources'. Saying things like "well in real life people don't fly around or walk on water". I honestly don't think ANY Chinese artist with half a brain cell actually claims they can.

Why people ? why why why ????

[Yang Zongbao]

I don't see anything flagrantly wrong with USING Wushu weapons...it's not heresy, but it doesn't feel right, but noone's head gets chopped off...but there is a lacking feel from not using and feeling what a real weapon would be like.

What's wrong is when people take that to be real, take Wushu weapons to be Chinese Weapons, not practice weapons. This is where the stereotypes sprung up that Jian is all stabbing, Jian is Weak compared to Dao and Katana, and Chinese Swords are flexible all come from.

When what's false is taken to be the truth, that is very wrong.

Then there's the myth that all martial arts came from Shaolin...I won't even go into that.

But watch out for stereotypes. They're everywhere, and always wrong...like the belief that the Jian was light, flexible, and weak in comparison.

BTW: Most Jian are in the 2lb range.

[Kenneth]

heheh. You will find a few into Traditional Chinese Medicine people that literally do believe in flying and such. Chi Gung masters. Zoom!
I find all the 'wire Fu' absolutely silly.
Jet Li or any one of them defy gravity as it is....they just throw their bodys and legs through the air in amazing ways through athleticism, when watching the 'House of flying Daggers' yesterday both me and my wife had to groan when the obligatory flying started.
The first sequence where the 'blind' girl is performing a dance with Wushu movements showed such control and grace without any of the wires I dont know why they don't just leave the movie to reveal the very real physical talents of the cast. They are amazing, as is Jet Li. THats what keeps me doing a false martial art like the CCP sanctioned Wushu. It is flashy fun! (well, sort of, it's actually more like torture I suppose).
TMPicachu "I don't think Hero had floppy blades. " The main character had this blade, that bent....was hollow in the middle for catching anothers blade and yet it hewed through armour with ease when needed. Looks cool, but it is fantasy.
Crouching Tiger was another example....the 'Green Destiny' bendy bendy sword from Shang times (HA! I will still post that info on real SHang swords when it arrives from Taiwan...hopefully) I love the movie, but not the wire fu. Again they are a talented enough cast without flying....and Heros fight on the water in Jesus style. Golly. Too much.
I love good Kung Fu movies but it always makes me groan.
One of the best physical performances I have seen was the young JAckie Chan in Drunken MAster II. Those Beijing Opera types are amazing too!


Sorry...getting off topic. But the bendy swords are not real Chinese weapons.

[浪淘音]

there is NO excuse to use performance WuShu weapons

here are common excuses made by certain forum members as well as some people in general

1. WuShu "weapons" are good because they are safe IE non-sharp
2. Since they weigh absolutely nothing, its good beginner training

complete and utter nonsense

The Rebuttal to those excuses

1. They make false blades which have the same weight, look and feel of a real sword but its non-sharp stainless steel, so therefore you can train with a weapon thats almost real without cutting yourself at all. There is no need to use a floppy pseudo weapon like wushu blades
B. all live blades (sharp high carbon combat steel swords) are made with a choice to leave the blade dull or hand sharpened. you can have a real sword but simply not sharpen it so it wont be that dangerous

2. You're supposed to train with something heavy so your muscles become use to coordinating a large piece of steel around. I had at least 4 girls at my old kung fu school who could wield a 5 pound shuang shou jian with ease, grace and power.

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90% of kung fu schools are just as bad as Wushu practioners when it comes to "effeminate approaches to sword training" as i like to call it.

one time, my school was performing in an event with other schools. One of the students from the other school forgot his sword so i offered mine for him to use. he drew the blade and you could tell that it was far too heavy for him and it was just a standard (but real) high carbon steel jian which was no more than 3 pounds

[Wujiang]

Actually, I think the excuse is not that it looks good, but it sounds good.

I think that things like the PRC wushu and simpified chinese characters is a real slap on the face on Chinese culture. And to think that most mainland chinese thinks that there are the good stuff.......