332 replies to this topic

[SNK_1408]

"Something you've missed, Malgal or Mohe have Yemaek origin, language of Balhae is Yemaek language because malgal have Yemaek origin."



I don't think Sushen derived from Yemaek in earliest Chinese records like Shanghaiji the ancestor of
Mohe/Wuji the name Sushen is already there.There is also a document record to arrange" Sushen (Tungus) side by side with Yan , Hoa (Maek tribe of Yemaek) the northern territories of Zhou during Zhou dynasty. "蕭慎,燕豪 吾北土也"
Wuji the former name of Mohe described in Chinese 魏書.勿吉傳- "其人形似夫余,而言語不同夫余,句麗." The Wuji people looks like Fuyu people but their language spoken was different from Fuyu, Koguryo.
However I must say several times in history the Sushen system people absorbed some Yemaek elements as they always lived near Yemaek people. For example the Wuji took the Fuyu land and people when the last king of Fuyu fought with Koguryo. Also the Sianbi took a lot Fuyu people as slaves and asimilated some of them.
In Changbaishan area some form of cultural fusion happened between Yemaek and Sushen cultures.
In short Yemaek and Sushen were different in customs , languages and living regions.
Yemaek historical cultural relics are represented typically by Xituanshan culture 西團山遺 址discovered in Manchuria, whilst Sushen cultural relics are represented typically by 莺歌岭遗址.Early Fuyu culture is represented by 白金寶遺址.
In Wiki somebody says Sushen culture is represneted by Xituanshan which is actually wrong .Xituanshan is Yemaek culture represented.
As for the language of Bohai I would express my ideas later.

You should know the variation among Malgal (Mohe) tribes were huge, they're not genetically & culturally same people. There was many different Malgal tribes, some were eventually disappeared or some have merged with others like Jurchens in later period and Baekje and Koguryo. Koguryo claimed they're direct descendant of Yemaek while Baekje claimed as direct Yemaek. We still don't what was like during Yemaek expansion, I don't think Yemaek was entirely made of one tribal league, they were many tribal league and clans. Sushen, Buyo, Okjeo were annexed by Koguryo and they really didn't left any archeological evidence other than few lines of their names in both Chinese and Korean records. Malgal weren't just roamed Northern parts of Korea and Manchuria, but also entire Korean peninsula which explains why Baekje, Silla, Gaya have fought common malgal tribes.

Sianbi? are you referring to Xianbei? They're totally different root from Yemeak, only Khitan, Buyo, Okjeo, Malgal, Koguryo and Baekje were Yemaek origin. Xianbei fought long wars with Koguryo but they're relatively short live.

Edited by SNK_1408, 18 July 2011 - 06:52 AM.

[Danny.T]

I don't agree that Sushen/Yilou/Wuji/Mohe was originated from Fuyu and Ye-Maek simply because their ethnic origin and languages spoken were different. Puyu/Koguryo (Yemaek) language were more similar to Old Japanese ( I support Christopher I. Beckwith's theory which is most convincing.) than the Sillan language (which the modern Korean language is based on and derived from). The degree of similarity of basic terms and numerical terms of Koguryo language as compared to the Old Japanese language confirms the theory.

Here is Christopher 's writing in defense of his own theory against other theories : The Ethnolinguistic History of the Early Korean Peninsula Region : Japanese Koguryoic and other Languages in Koguryo, Paekche, and Silla kingdoms.

Goto the PDF document of Christopher's essay -

Also Wuji's language was not Fuyu /Koguryo language as recorded by historical Chinese
"The book of Ngai《魏书》 " as I mentined before. Chinese records also put Maek and Sushen side by side during Zhou dynasty on the northen border of Zhou. Ye , Maek could be differentiated from Sushen.

Maek was dongyi resided originally in Shangdong peninsula(Eastern China) while Ye was at Shenshi (North China). Sushen was resided at Hebei (region near Beijing). As the expansion of Zhou people in central and Eastern China and Yan kingdom during Warring States period, Ye-Maek and Sushen had to move to North East China.Sushen tribes mainly went to areas north or north of Manchuria into Siberia and Yemaek to the central plain of Manchuria and eastern coast of Korean Peninsula as recorded by Chinese "The book of Ngai《魏书》" in the 3rd century AD.

Yemaek and Sushen were actually from Eastern and North China expanding to Manchuria and Korean peninsula.

Here I don't mean there is no natives(old residents) in the Korean Peninsula since neolithic age; the natives were Paleo Asiatics who originally occupied the land strip from the coast if Kamchaka peninsula down to Korean peninsula. Due to the expansion of Yemaek to the East coast of Korean peninsula and Sushen to the Eastern coast of Manchuria the Paleo Asiatics withdrawn to southern Korean Peninsula to become Samhans and Koryak (another Paleo-Asiatic tribe) on the cost of Siberia. Language of Koryak is the nearest resemblance of present day Korean outside theKorean peninsula.
My assumption is due to the close links of Fuyu/Koguryo/Baekje/Japan(Yemaek link) as shown by the same language spoken and/or ethnic links of the royal houses, an alliance was formed to annihibilate Silla's existence on the peninsula and Japan even wanted to re-install Baekje after Tang army destroyed the original Fuyu royal house rule of Baekje.
Here I don't see any real evidence to say Mohe was originated from Yemaek. True, Yilou/Wuji/Mohe was subjugated by Fuyu for 400 years but was never a direct citizen of Fuyu, no record shows they fought in battles for Fuyu (only the royal class and direct citizens of Ye fought in battles), Mohe was taxed heavily instead for labour and supplies as slaves. Finally they broke free and send tributes to Chinese warloads Ngai and Jin.
True, part of the Summo Mohe tribes was subjugated by Koguryo and part of the Wuji/Mohe's 7 tribes like White Mountain Mohe followed Koguryo , that was a political alliance only and Mohe soldiers were always arranged in the front line.
Summo Mohe was not a direct ethnic tribe of Koguryo, Mohe was Tungus while Koguryo was Yemaek based mainly. See the following differences in customs between the two :
Yemaek : eat dogs, agrarian living style, rearing cattles and horses,live in castle surrounded dwellings with wooden gates, wear linen or silk cloths, like to study classical Chinese culture,Fuyu used Shang calender, use bean shaped eating utensils and use pointed handle pottery vases角状把手罐.
Sushen/Yilou/Wuji/Mohe : don't eat dogs(dogs assisted in hunting), hunting and fishing in the forests, rear pigs, wear pigskin cloths, grease their body with pig fat paste for warmth in winter,
live in doomed shaped earth caves halfly dug into ground with opening on center top for air and entrance via ladder. They used cylinderical long flat Mohe pottery vases 锯齿状附加堆纹的“靺鞨罐”,but no bean shaped eating utensils, barely left neolithnic stone age since Sui dynasty.
The burial goods and burial system were different between Mohe and Koguryo.
Mohe was not Yemaek.
Bohai was the first Mohe country. Mohe declared themselves Mohe Guo (Mohe country ) besides Jin Guo (country of Jin) before acceptance of the name of Bohai conferred upon by Tang Emperor.
Khitan was mongolic not Yemaek too.

[shunyadragon]

Thank you for the reference and information concerning Bohai and the region around the Shandong peninsula. this region is one of the regions of my interest and study. I lived in Shanyang 6 years of the 9 years I spent in China.