332 replies to this topic

[Yun]

The most well known Koguryo subject of Tang was some general who introducted papermaking into the middle east. He was some big general for Tang and lost some battle in Afganistan or something like that. I foget.

That's Gao Xianzhi. He lost the Battle of Talas to the Arabs in the Tarim Basin, and some paper-makers who were captured by the Arabs introduced paper-making to the West. Gao is also currently playing a role in our semi-fictional historical RPG over in the Dragon Gate Inn.

The original Gao in China were from Bohai prefecture in Hebei (nothing to do with the later state of Bohai), but by the time of the Northern Qi, the Qi imperial house's claim to descent from these Bohai Gao was already very tenuous - showing that there were 'counterfeit' Gao around. There was also a Koguryo general in the service of the Murong Xianbei's Later Yan state of the late 4th century, named Gao Yun (he took the name Murong Yun for a while). He overthrew the last Murong emperor in 407 and became the ruler of the Yan state, but was himself killed in 409. The rule of the Yan state then passed to the Han family of Feng.

[WangKon936]

My theory is that Koguryo royal family either adopted the name independently because it was similar to the name of the kingdom or it was given to them by an emperor of the Wei Dynasty. Following the central asian tradition, Koreans at first didn't have last names. Just like central asians, and early in their history, they also traced their lineage through their mothers (this shocked the Chinese).

Hey MengTzu, thanks for the disclaimer. I'm not in the mood to constantly defend Korea's claim to Koguryo's heritage (personally I believe you need to share some of Koguryo's heritage with the PRC, especially with the people in Dong Bei). Regarding your question, I'm guessing that the Gaos that settled in the central plain are still Gaos today. I really don't know. What I do know is that most of Koguryo people that were settled in the central plain stayed there. Some did make it to Parhae and Silla. I read some place that when King Tae Muye, 2nd king of Bohai, attacked Shandong, he took back Koguryo people who wanted to return to Southern Manchuria.

[MengTzu]

My theory is that Koguryo royal family either adopted the name independently because it was similar to the name of the kingdom or it was given to them by an emperor of the Wei Dynasty.  Following the central asian tradition, Koreans at first didn't have last names.  Just like central asians, and early in their history, they also traced their lineage through their mothers (this shocked the Chinese).

Hey MengTzu, thanks for the disclaimer.  I'm not in the mood to constantly defend Korea's claim to Koguryo's heritage (personally I believe you need to share some of Koguryo's heritage with the PRC, especially with the people in Dong Bei).  Regarding your question, I'm guessing that the Gaos that settled in the central plain are still Gaos today.  I really don't know.

What I'm asking is, are the 300000 Koguryo household assimilated into the Han people instead of being returned to Koguryo?

[Gubook Janggoon]

What I'm asking is, are the 300000 Koguryo household assimilated into the Han people instead of being returned to Koguryo?

IIRC they were assimilated. I don't really see a way for them to go back to the lands that Goguryeo once occupied.

[MengTzu]

IIRC they were assimilated.  I don't really see a way for them to go back to the lands that Goguryeo once occupied.

AH HA, so Chinese have a claim to Koguryo!!
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I'm just kidding guys. Just kidding.

[WangKon936]

AH HA, so Chinese have a claim to Koguryo!!
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I'm just kidding guys.  Just kidding.  

Well... using that line of reasoning, I guess the U.S. has a claim to England, Ireland, Italy, Poland and Germany! There are far more people of those nation's heritage in the U.S. then there are in those original countries.... hahahahaha.

Please keep in mind that Koguryo people wanted to go to Silla. Koguryo people in Tang and Tang's borderlands were forcibly transported there.

[MengTzu]

Well... using that line of reasoning, I guess the U.S. has a claim to England, Ireland, Italy, Poland and Germany!  There are far more people of those nation's heritage in the U.S. then there are in those original countries.... hahahahaha.

Please keep in mind that Koguryo people wanted to go to Silla.  Koguryo people in Tang and Tang's borderlands were forcibly transported there.

Wait, you mean US doesn't own England, Ireland, and the others?

[lobster]

Hey does Canada own Holland because their queen was born here?

Kidding, I'm just kidding, don't shoot me, noooooooooooo (PING)

[MengTzu]

Hey does Canada own Holland because their queen was born here? 

Kidding, I'm just kidding, don't shoot me, noooooooooooo (PING)

Man, I'm not saying they should shoot you, but they should at least tar you for liking soccer in Canada. Come on, what happened to all the great North American sports like NFL, CFL, basketball, hockey. Where's on earth your Canadian pride, eh?

[Yun]

In 722, Wuyi sent his general Zhang Wenxiu to lead pirates on a raid of Dengzhou (on the Shandong peninsula), and Xuanzong then hurriedly sent Menyi to lead the troops from Youzhou to attack Bohai, while sending Minister of Transport Jin Silan to Silla as an ambassador to coordinate a simultaneous Silla attack on Bohai from the south. [this was the Bohai attack on Tang that GJ mentioned - in 722, not 732. Lee Ki-baik's book was mistaken on the date.]However, it was a very cold winter with a huge snowfall, and more than half of the Tang soldiers froze to death. The Tang army withdrew without achieving anything.

I checked the records, and the Bohai "pirate raid" on Dengzhou actually succeeded in killing the provincial governor, Wei Jun. So it probably wasn't just some minor raid. I also understand now why Lee Ki-baik dated it to 732. The Xin Tangshu has a discrepancy - in their chronicle of the Kaiyuan reign, they date the raid to 732, but in their chapter on Bohai, they seem to date it to 722. Either there is an error in one of these accounts, or there were two raids.

[lobster]

Man, I'm not saying they should shoot you, but they should at least tar you for liking soccer in Canada.  Come on, what happened to all the great North American sports like NFL, CFL, basketball, hockey.  Where's on earth your Canadian pride, eh?     

Hehe, my love of soccer is overtaking anything (well, except for women of course)...

[Yun]

A glossary of Bohai words from the Xin Tangshu:

The King/Prince of Bohai: called the Kedufu 可毒夫, also known as Shengwang 圣王 (Holy King) and Jixia 基下.

Royal edict or command: Jiao 教 (as opposed to Zhao 诏 in the Tang)

Father of the King (in Da Qinmao's case, this would be the deceased Da Wuyi): Laowang 老王 (Old King)

Mother of the King: Taifei 太妃 (Grand Concubine)

Queen: Guifei 贵妃 (Esteemed Concubine, same title as Yang Yuhuan's)

Crown Prince: Fuwang 副王 (Assistant King)

Other princes (sons of the King): Wangzi 王子 (literally 'king's son')

Departments of the Bohai court:

Secretariat for Proclaiming Edicts (Xuanzhao sheng 宣诏省) - equivalent to the Tang Approbational Secretariat (Menxia sheng 门下省)
1) Chief Minister of the Left (Zuoxiang 左相)
2) Chancellor of the Left (Zuo Pingzhangshi 左平章事)
3) Counsellors (Shizhong 侍中)
4) Consultants of the Left (Zuo Changshi 左常侍)
5) Remonstrators (Jianyi Dafu 谏议大夫)

Palace Secretariat (Zhongtai sheng 中台省) - equivalent to the Tang Palace Secretariat (Zhongshu sheng 中书省)
1) Chief Minister of the Right (Youxiang 右相)
2) Chancellor of the Right (You Pingzhangshi 右平章事)
3) Palace Secretaries (Neishi 内史)
4) Secretarial attendants (Zhaogao Sheren 诏诰舍人)

Secretariat of State Affairs (Zhengtang sheng 政堂省) - equivalent to the Tang State Secretariat (Shangshu sheng 尚书省)
1) Prime Minister of the Interior (Daneixiang 大内相, ranks above the Chief Ministers of the Left and Right)
2) Administrative Ministers of the Left and Right (Zuo sizheng 左司政, You sizheng 右司政, rank below the Chancellors of the Left and Right. Equivalent to the Tang Executive State Secretaries [Puye 仆射])
3) Administrative Secretaries of the Left and Right (Zuoyun 左允, Youyun 右允, equivalent to the Tang Adminstrative State Secretaries [Cheng 丞])

Other organs of government like the Departments of the Palace (e.g. kitchen, granaries, water supply, repairs, weapons etc.) and the Censorate are also basically following the Tang system.

Bohai Imperial Guards Units:
1) The Fierce Chargers (Mengben 猛贲) of the Left and Right
2) The Bear Guards (Xiongwei 熊卫)
3) The Brown Bear Guards (Piwei 罴卫)
4) The South Guards of the Left and Right (Nanzuo Wei 南左卫, Nanyou Wei 南右卫)
5) The North Guards of the Left and Right (Beizuo Wei 北左卫, Beiyou Wei 北右卫)

Each unit is led by one Grand General (Da Jiangjun 大将军) and one General (Jiangjun 将军).

[WangKon936]

A glossary of Bohai words from the Xin Tangshu:

The King/Prince of Bohai: called the Kedufu 可毒夫, also known as Shengwang 圣王 (Holy King) and Jixia 基下.

Royal edict or command: Jiao 教 (as opposed to Zhao 诏 in the Tang)

Father of the King (in Da Qinmao's case, this would be the deceased Da Wuyi): Laowang 老王 (Old King)

Mother of the King: Taifei 太妃 (Grand Concubine)

Queen: Guifei 贵妃 (Esteemed Concubine, same title as Yang Yuhuan's)

Crown Prince: Fuwang 副王 (Assistant King)

Other princes (sons of the King): Wangzi 王子 (literally 'king's son')

Departments of the Bohai court:

Secretariat for Proclaiming Edicts (Xuanzhao sheng 宣诏省) - equivalent to the Tang Approbational Secretariat (Menxia sheng 门下省)
1) Chief Minister of the Left (Zuoxiang 左相)
2) Chancellor of the Left (Zuo Pingzhangshi 左平章事)
3) Counsellors (Shizhong 侍中)
4) Consultants of the Left (Zuo Changshi 左常侍)
5) Remonstrators (Jianyi Dafu 谏议大夫)

Palace Secretariat (Zhongtai sheng 中台省) - equivalent to the Tang Palace Secretariat (Zhongshu sheng 中书省)
1) Chief Minister of the Right (Youxiang 右相)
2) Chancellor of the Right (You Pingzhangshi 右平章事)
3) Palace Secretaries (Neishi 内史)
4) Secretarial attendants (Zhaogao Sheren 诏诰舍人)

Secretariat of State Affairs (Zhengtang sheng 政堂省) - equivalent to the Tang State Secretariat (Shangshu sheng 尚书省)
1) Prime Minister of the Interior (Daneixiang 大内相, ranks above the Chief Ministers of the Left and Right)
2) Administrative Ministers of the Left and Right (Zuo sizheng 左司政, You sizheng 右司政, rank below the Chancellors of the Left and Right. Equivalent to the Tang Executive State Secretaries [Puye 仆射])
3) Administrative Secretaries of the Left and Right (Zuoyun 左允, Youyun 右允, equivalent to the Tang Adminstrative State Secretaries [Cheng 丞])

Other organs of government like the Departments of the Palace (e.g. kitchen, granaries, water supply, repairs, weapons etc.) and the Censorate are also basically following the Tang system.

Bohai Imperial Guards Units:
1) The Fierce Chargers (Mengben 猛贲) of the Left and Right
2) The Bear Guards (Xiongwei 熊卫)
3) The Brown Bear Guards (Piwei 罴卫)
4) The South Guards of the Left and Right (Nanzuo Wei 南左卫, Nanyou Wei 南右卫)
5) The North Guards of the Left and Right (Beizuo Wei 北左卫, Beiyou Wei 北右卫)

Each unit is led by one Grand General (Da Jiangjun 大将军) and one General (Jiangjun 将军).

Yun.... with all due respect.... these appear to be the Chinese pronounciations of the Parhae/Bohai words. They don't appear to be native Parhae words. Dr. Renckel says that only one native Parhae word survived and it's the word for "King."

From all the resources I could gleen, it is my humble opinion that Parhae people spoke a Tungistic language with a Koguryo Atalic language substrata.

[Gubook Janggoon]

Yun.... with all due respect.... these appear to be the Chinese pronounciations of the Parhae/Bohai words.  They don't appear to be native Parhae words.  Dr. Renckel says that only one native Parhae word survived and it's the word for "King."

What was their word for king?

[Yun]

The word for king is Kedufu 可毒夫. Wangkon, I did tell Gubook exactly the same thing on the RPG thread - that most of these words are translations rather than transliterations, and thus the original form of the word is lost. Sorry for not bringing it up here.