332 replies to this topic

[stupidumboy]

To add my humble knowledge for the Koguryo's descedents(who were born and raised in china under their koguryo parents who moved into china by force or willing) people after its Kingdom had collapsed,

One of the most famous man is Lee Jung Ki -李正己-

Anybody heard of his name?

He was the 節度使 that governed 淸州 area(modern shantong )according to the 新.舊唐書,his son 李納 founded independence Kingdom of 齊 and it had lasted to the next two more generations by 李師古 and 李師道

[Gubook Janggoon]

I can't read any of the Chinese characters you've posted, Cept maybe for 李, but does one of the names you posted happen to say I Sado? (이사도)

[naruwan]

I can't read any of the Chinese characters you've posted, Cept maybe for 李, but does one of the names you posted happen to say I Sado? (이사도)

Yes! 李師道 = I SaDo

[Yun]

The only prominent Bohai Malgal in the Tang army of which I know is Li Huaiguang. His father was originally named Ru Chang, but was renamed Li Jiaqing by the imperial court as a reward for his military services in Shuofang. Li Huaiguang rose in the ranks during the An Lushan and Shi Siming rebellions, and in 783 rescued the Tang emperor Dezong who was being besieged by the rebel general Zhu Ci in Fengtian. But in 784, Li Huaiguang himself rebelled against the Tang court, allying himself with Zhu Ci. Tang Dezong had to flee to Hanzhong this time. A few months later, Zhu Ci was defeated and murdered by his own men while fleeing to Tibet.

In 785, Li Huaiguang was defeated and besieged by the loyalist general Ma Sui in Hezhong, Shanxi. In the end, he committed suicide and his men surrendered.

[DomaHwang]

A glossary of Bohai words from the Xin Tangshu:

Bohai Imperial Guards Units:
1) The Fierce Chargers (Mengben 猛贲) of the Left and Right
2) The Bear Guards (Xiongwei 熊卫)
3) The Brown Bear Guards (Piwei 罴卫)
4) The South Guards of the Left and Right (Nanzuo Wei 南左卫, Nanyou Wei 南右卫)
5) The North Guards of the Left and Right (Beizuo Wei 北左卫, Beiyou Wei 北右卫)

Each unit is led by one Grand General (Da Jiangjun 大将军) and one General (Jiangjun 将军).

Bear...
Bear totem is distinct in Tugus as far as I know. However, Huang-Di also got control over bear people...this is a bit mystery. I am still ignorant of Tiger totem, though.
Korean myth(?) on the Gojeosun suggest that Korean is a mixture of Dong-Yi branch and Tugus (my personal interpretation). Just as Vietnamese is a mixture of Shennong and southern people.

Edited by DomaHwang, 02 August 2005 - 11:21 AM.

[Yun]

Naruwan has recently argued that the Sumo tribe of the Malgal who established Bohai were actually Sogdians. Here are his arguments:

Sogdiana (粟特人) were also just around Bactria. These people actually moved all the way from Iran to ShanDong and established 渤海國 (Balhae) during Sui and Tang dynasty.

Sogdiana (粟特人)

粟末 in Traditional Han language (So Boat)

Wiki

渤海國（669年—926年），位於朝鮮半島北部及現時中國東北地區東部、舊日沿海州舊地。由粟末靺鞨酋長大祚榮所建立，初名「振國 (震國)」，其民族主體為粟末靺鞨... 渤海國是一個具有二重性的政權，它既是粟末靺鞨聯合高句麗等遺民建立的一個王國政權，同時又是唐朝管轄下的一個羈縻州。


Bohai (669 - 926) located in the northern part of Corean penisula and Northeastern part of China. Formed by SoBoatMoJie's chef DaZhouRon.....


隋書 SuiShu - 東夷 DonYi


靺鞨
　　靺鞨，在高麗之北，邑落俱有酋長，不相總一。凡有七種：其一號粟末部


MoJie, North of Koguryo, every village has a leader, they don't adhear to one rule. There are a total 7 tribes, one of them is call So Boat.

舊唐書 JioTangShu - 北狄 BeiDi


渤海靺鞨
　　渤海靺鞨大祚榮者，本高麗別種也。高麗既滅，祚榮率家屬徙居營州。


BoHai MoJie's first king, DaZhouRon was originally a minority in Koguryo. After Koguryo as destroyed, he lead his family and moved to 營州 (遼寧)


新唐書 SinTangShu - 北狄 BeiDi


渤海，本粟末靺鞨附高麗者，姓大氏。高麗滅，率眾保挹婁之東牟山，地直營州東二千里，南比新羅，以泥河為境，東窮海，西契丹。築城郭以居，高麗逋殘稍歸之。


BoHai, Originally from those SoBoat MoJie that was under Koguryo's command. After Koguryo ended, leadered let his followers to DongMouShan (吉林).....

Anyway, I read somewhere that at there height, they controled parts of 山東 Shan Dong. But you are right, they didn't start at Shan Dong, but they weren't too far from it either.

Note: Bohai raiders did briefly capture the port of Dengzhou in Shandong during the early 700s. But this was the fullest extent of their presence in Shandong, and they quickly withdrew.

粟末 is not pronounced as SuMo, rather SuBoat or SuBut.

粟特 is PRC 's translation. Historically 粟特 has been recorded as 昭武九姓 (The 9 Family names of ZhaoWu). They are 康(Samarkand)、安(Bukhara)、石(Tashkent)、曹(Kaputana)、米(Maymurgh)、何 (Kushanik)、史(Kishsh) and so on. It would not be surprising if they move to North East China, the reason is the fur trade. 黑貂 fur trading to the Sugdas is as important as silk. Following is a passage regarding Sugdas:


中亞古國名。即索格狄亞那。位於阿姆河﹑錫爾河之間﹐以澤拉夫尚河﹑卡什卡河流域為中心的地區(今蘇聯塔吉克與烏茲別克境內)﹐古波斯文寫作 Suguda ﹐Sugda ﹐漢文譯作粟弋﹑屬繇﹑蘇薤﹑粟特等。梵文作Surika﹐中古波斯文作Sulik﹐漢譯作窣利﹑速利﹑蘇哩等。“粟特”一詞﹐一說來自共同伊朗語的詞根﹐意為“閃耀”﹑“燃燒”﹔一說在塔吉克－波斯語詞彙中意為“聚水窪地”。隋唐時代所謂昭武九姓大多在這一地區。當地居民稱之為粟特人。操粟特語。


In Ancient Persian, they are known as Suguda, Sughda ,in Sanskrit as Surika, in mid-persian as Sulik. Sugda is said to mean Shine and Burn. In Tajik Persian, Sugda means low land that collects water.

I have been many Bohai artifacts in museams before, and they look very much like things from Central Asia.

I wish I can find pictures to show that. Perhaps our Corean forumers can help with that.

Other historical mentions of Sugda moving to Manchuria:

《晉書》卷107《石季龍載記附冉閔》：

降胡粟特康等執冉胤及左仆射劉琦等送與（石） 祗”；石勒初起十八騎中之西域姓尚有夔安


《古今姓氏書辯證》卷3脂韻夔氏條：

石虎有太保夔安，自天竺徙遼東，玄孫逸，姚秦司空，騰仕後燕


related books on the Sughda Bohai relations:

E.V.夏富庫諾夫《東北亞民族歷史上的粟特人與黑貂之路》
V.M.瓦西裏耶夫《渤海人及女真文化中的粟特-伊朗要素》，收在《西伯利亞古代文化問題》

What do our Korea experts think of this?

[Jurchen Fuca]

very nice. being part-manchurian I really felt the need to understand the place where my ancestor came from.

[WangKon936]

I've heard that they claimed to be the successors of Goguryeo but how much of a connection was there? Did they share a common culture, language, ect? pics would help...

I have been looking at this question for some time now. I have consulted with three professors. One European, one American and one Korean. Sometimes I think this kingdom is a mostly pre-Jurchen state, and sometimes I think the Pre-Jurchen's (Malgal) couldn't have built it up without the Koguryo upper class' help. I came across an interesting excerpt from a Choson Dynasty era scholar that talks about Parhae and I wanted to share it with everyone here:

Yu Tukkong: Parhae in Korean History
[From "So," in Parhae Ko, pp. 2-3][Yu Yukkong (1748-1807), is an official of the Royal Library during the Choson Dynasty in Korea.]

"The fact that Koryo did not assume it's rightful responsibility of writing a history of Parhae shows us that Koryo failed in its responsibility to assert its authority in our corner of the world.

In the past, the Ko clan, which resided in the north, took the name Koguryo. The Puyo clan, which resided in the southwest, took the name Paekche. The Pak, Sok, and Kim clans, which resided in the southeast, took the name Silla. These were what are called the Three Kingdoms. It was appropriate that there be a history of these three kingdoms, and it was appropriate that Koryo compile it.

After the demise of the Puyo clan and the Ko clan, the Kim clan assumed control over the south, and the Tae clan assumed control over the north, which it named Parhae. These were what are called the Southern and Northern Kingdoms. Koryo should have written a history for the Southern and Northern Kingdoms but did not do so. That was a mistake.

Who were the members of the Tae clan? They were people of Koguryo. What land did they rule over? It was Koguryo land, but they had added on to it, expanding eastward, westward, and northward.

After Silla and Parhae fell, the Wang Clan claimed their territory for its new kingdom, which it named Koryo. Koryo took over all the land the Kim clan had controlled in the south, but it was not able to take over all of the land the Tae clan had controlled in the north because some of that territory had fallen into the hands of the Jurchen and some of it into the hands of the Khitan.

At that time, Koryo's leaders should have quickly compiled an official history of Parhae and used it to rebuke the Jurchen by saying, "why are you occupying Parhae land instead of returning it to us? After all, Parhae territory was originally Koguryo territory." If they had then immediately sent a general to go and claim that territory, it would have been possible to reclaim the land north of the Tumen River for Korea.

Koryo could have used that same official history of Parhae to rebuke the Khitan as well, saying to them, "Why are you occupying Parhae land instead of returning it to us? After all, Parhae territory was originally Koguryo territory." If Koryo had then immediately, sent a general to go and claim that land, then it would have been possible to reclaim the land west of the Yalu River for Korea.

But as it turned out, Koryo did not compile an official history of Parhae, so later generations did not know who really had the rightful claim to the land north of the Tumen and west of the Yalu. Even if Koryo had wanted to rebuke the Jurchen, because it had not compiled an official history of Parhae it lacked the historical documentation to do so. Even if Koryo had wanted to rebuke the Khitan, because it had not compiled an official history of Parhae it lacked the historical documentation to support its claims. The reason Koryo was regarded as a weak nation was that it failed to assert its claim to Parhae territory. Howe can we not feel regret over such a deplorable turn of events?

There may be those who will say, "Parhae was destroyed by the Liao. How could there have been anything left for Koryo to use in compiling its history? But they would be wrong. Parhae copied China's political structure, so it certainly had a court historian. When Parhae's capital was destroyed, the crown prince fled with hundreds of thousands of people into exile in Koryo. Even if there was no court historian among them, they would not have fled without bringing some court documents with them. And even if they had no court historian and no documents, there crown prince could at least have provided Koryo with a copy of the Parhae royal family tree if Koryo had only asked him for it. The former Parhae general Ungyejong could have told them about the rituals and official ceremonies of Parhae if the people of Koryo had only asked him to. And the could have learned whatever they needed to know about Parhae if they had only asked the hundreds of thousands of people who had fled to Koryo when Parhae fell. Even through Chang Chien-chang was a man of T'ang China, still he managed to write The Record of the Parhae Kingdom. Was there no one among the people of Koryo who could write a history of Parhae? Alas! It has been hundreds of years since the records documenting Parhae's history have been scattered and lost. How could anyone write a history of Parhae now?

I have taken advantage of my position as a member of the staff of the Royal Library to peruse a large number of secret documents and have collected and collated those documents with information on Parhae. I have arranged those documents according to the following nine areas for investigation: nobles, ministers, geography, public offices, ritual texts, local products, the national language, state documents, and tributary states. I call these collection of documents "areas for investigation" rather than "Hereditary Houses," "Biographies," and "Treatises" because there are too many gaps in them to form a complete history and because I do not feel qualified to call myself a historian."

In my opinion, one of the greatest obstacles of Koreans trying to claim the historical heritage of Parhae is the fact that Koreans did not write an official court history of said kingdom. However, there is this question of Parhae refugees. I had always heard that Parhae refugees fled to Koryo several years after the Liao conquest, but I never knew it was "several hundred thousand" people. Yu Tukkong makes the assertion that the Parhae prince was the "crown prince" but most scholars today have desputed that claim. He likely considered himself the crown prince because all the other princes were Liao captives. In anycase, one of the professors is going to look up the T'ae family geneology (he said he had seen the geneology while at Seoul University) and we are going to see if we can find any information on the supposed "several hundred thousand" Parhae refugees. If it really was that many, then I have to question the whole idea that Parhae was mostly a pre-Jurchen state. Koryo considered the Jurchens as barbarians and would never have allowed so many of them to integrate into Koryo society. Koryo was a devoutly Buddist state, so these refugees would of have to have been Buddists as well. There could be a chance that these refugees and the Koryo people spoke a language that might be similar. You see, Jurchens who lived on the Koryo border, were never allowed to fully integrate into Korean society and they were not allowed to have geneologies. Koryo must of felt that they had some commonalities with these Parhae refugees if they were given land, titles and noble status. I believe it needs to be further investigated, thus more to come later.

[WangKon936]

Naruwan has recently argued that the Sumo tribe of the Malgal who established Bohai were actually Sogdians. Here are his arguments:
Note: Bohai raiders did briefly capture the port of Dengzhou in Shandong during the early 700s. But this was the fullest extent of their presence in Shandong, and they quickly withdrew.
What do our Korea experts think of this?

I have run across some Parhae/Bohai artifacts at the National Museum at Seoul (I was in Korea for two weeks) and will share some pictures when I get a chance.

[Gubook Janggoon]

I have run across some Parhae/Bohai artifacts at the National Museum at Seoul (I was in Korea for two weeks) and will share some pictures when I get a chance.

I'm excited to see them :] It's a temporary exhibit with artifacts on loan from Japan right?

[caocao74]

I have run across some Parhae/Bohai artifacts at the National Museum at Seoul (I was in Korea for two weeks) and will share some pictures when I get a chance.

I've just come back from a couple of days in Seoul but I didn't have time to visit the new National Museum. Is it much better than the old one next to Gyeongbokkung??

[华夏帝国]

http://www.chinahist...showtopic=12021

1,300-year-old stele eyed by Chinese, Japanese archaeologists

[WangKon936]

I have been looking at this question for some time now. I have consulted with three professors. One European, one American and one Korean. Sometimes I think this kingdom is a mostly pre-Jurchen state, and sometimes I think the Pre-Jurchen's (Malgal) couldn't have built it up without the Koguryo upper class' help. I came across an interesting excerpt from a Choson Dynasty era scholar that talks about Parhae and I wanted to share it with everyone here:

Yu Tukkong: Parhae in Korean History
[From "So," in Parhae Ko, pp. 2-3]

[Yu Yukkong (1748-1807), is an official of the Royal Library during the Choson Dynasty in Korea.]

As I've mentioned before, I've been in discussions with three professors regarding Parhae. One Professor, Dr. Reckel made this comment to me about the Parhae Ko by Yu Tukkong.

"Yu Tukkong wrote his Parhae ko in 1784 more than 800 years after the downfall of Parhae and at a time, when original documents from that time were no longer extant. Yu Tukkong therefore had to go back to the same sources as we today. In his Parhae ko he writes very vaguely about "several ten or more thousand" refugees, which means just "about 100 000" . The only source for this number would be the Koryo-sa, written in the 15th century. The Koryosa reports in his first two chapters the arrival of several waves of Parhae refugees to Koryo. Under the 9th month of the 8th year of King T'aejo (925) the first 300 refugees are recorded and at the same time a short explanation given about Parhae. In this explanatory note it says, that Parhae had a population of several 100.000 people. In 926 the capital of Parhae is captured by the Khitan and the the King and Queen taken prisoners. The crown prince escapes. In 934 the Crown Prince arrives as a refugee in Koryo. He is accompanied by "several ten thousand" Parhae refugees. Thereafter only small groups of Parhae refugees are recorded by the Koryo-sa. That is, until the year 979 when another wave of "several ten thousand" Parhae refugees arrive in Koryo.

Numbers in East Asian sources are often not very exact. "Several 10000" means only "a lot" and can't be taken literally. Parhae might have had a total population of well under half a million people and of these the majority were Malgal which remained in Manchuria. But again: numbers are guesswork in this field."

Thus ends Dr. Reckel's comments. This is interesting and I'm trying to learn more here. Apparently Parhae's population is very small, which is hard to understand in the sense that land wise, Parhae is big. This is the country that Chinese sources call "The Flurishing Country of the East." How does it become this big and prosperous if it only has a population of less that half a million? Koguryo in 668 AD had 3.5 million and even small Paekje had a population of 4 million. In my mind, the number of 500k MUST mean the upper class only. How in the world does a total population of 500k have a sizable army to keep Khitan, Tang and Silla armies at bay? In the history of Parhae, each of the aftermentioned people tried to invade them at least once.

So it wasn't "several hundred thousand." The translation I have of the introduction of the Parhae Ko was wrong. It should really mean "several tens of thousands." However, it appears that the number of Parhae people to come to Koryo was relatively high and came in several "phases." It also probably amounted to about 30 to 50,000 people and most of these would be the upper classes. It seems as if a significant portion of the upper classes, who were not Khitan captives and/or became a part of the puppet Changahn state, went to Koryo.

I'm looking for two articles on how Koryo treated these Parhae refugees and will share my findings once I have a chance to review.

[MING-LOYALIST]

This is the country that Chinese sources call "The Flurishing Country of the East." How does it become this big and prosperous if it only has a population of less that half a million? Koguryo in 668 AD had 3.5 million and even small Paekje had a population of 4 million. In my mind, the number of 500k MUST mean the upper class only. How in the world does a total population of 500k have a sizable army to keep Khitan, Tang and Silla armies at bay? In the history of Parhae, each of the aftermentioned people tried to invade them at least once.

If 500K is only the upper class then Parhae would have a pretty sizable population probrably a few million right?

Yet all the stuff I have read on Liao dynasty suggests that Liao had a population of about 3 million where Two million are Han and about 500-700K Khitans and rest are many other tribes including parhaens and "cooked" Jurchens.
Liao is also HUGE(manchuria,Inner-outer Mongolia and Beijing and Datong in north China) in land mass but has a extremely thin population except its southern circuits where Han people lived.

[WangKon936]

If 500K is only the upper class then Parhae would have a pretty sizable population probrably a few million right?

Yet all the stuff I have read on Liao dynasty suggests that Liao had a population of about 3 million where Two million are Han and about 500-700K Khitans and rest are many other tribes including parhaens and "cooked" Jurchens.
Liao is also HUGE(manchuria,Inner-outer Mongolia and Beijing and Datong in north China) in land mass but has a extremely thin population except its southern circuits where Han people lived.

What is a "cooked" Jurchen? A semi-civilized one?