332 replies to this topic

[DearCoolZ]

What is a "cooked" Jurchen? A semi-civilized one?

shu nvzhen,the southern most jurchens. the northern most being the wild or ye jurchens

Edited by DearCoolZ, 04 June 2006 - 01:24 AM.

[MING-LOYALIST]

I found something on Khitan's anhilation of Parhae.


In 925 Yelu Abaoji the Leader of the "Great Khitan" invades Parhae, in december khitan army reach the city of Fuyu(In NongAn Jilin province) and take it in the first month of 926.

The Main Khitan army then proceeds to the Parhae's main capital(In NingAn area of Heilongjiang province) and lay siege to it that night. The Parhae King surrenders and eventually the Khitan armies destroys whatever local resistance forces that remained.

The Khitan then set a up a nation called "Dongdan"(East Khitan) and put the Khitan crown prince Yelu bei as its king.
The khitan kept the Parhae King under virtual house arrest in the "Little Parhae city" just southwest of the Khitan Supreme capital(in inner mongolia north of Xar M0ron.)

In 934 Parhae's crowned prince Da guangxian leads tens of thousands of followers to Koryo and from then on Koryo cut off relations with Khitan(Liao) and viewed them as an enemy leading to series of devastating wars and even the destruction of Koryo's capital Kaijing(Kaesong).

Edited by MING-LOYALIST, 04 June 2006 - 09:00 PM.

[redflowers]

In Parhae kingdom,the rulers were of Korean ethnicity,and main amounts of the peoples were of Manchurian one.In this kingdom,what was the hierarchy/caste for the ordinary-Manchurian-people?Was that the ordinary-Machurian in the less caste in the comparison with another ordinary-Korean one?

Almost of my knowing about Balhae is only about the wars that it suffered with the enemies,so I must demand ur explainations.Help me !!!

[WangKon936]

If 500K is only the upper class then Parhae would have a pretty sizable population probrably a few million right?

Yet all the stuff I have read on Liao dynasty suggests that Liao had a population of about 3 million where Two million are Han and about 500-700K Khitans and rest are many other tribes including parhaens and "cooked" Jurchens.
Liao is also HUGE(manchuria,Inner-outer Mongolia and Beijing and Datong in north China) in land mass but has a extremely thin population except its southern circuits where Han people lived.

Comments on Liao's population is probably key in estimating Parhae's population. Is information on Liao's population available in English?

[Tungus]

One of the most disputed issue about Barhae history is whether Da Joyong, the founder of Barhae was a Korean (Koguryo) or a Malkal (Tungus-Manchu ancestor).

Chinese scholars claim that Barhae is part if Chinese history based on their effective control over Manchu pupolation currently and also based on Manchu (滿族)'s claim that Dae Joyong (大祖榮) was a Malkal man. Koreans say no to that and claim that Barhae (渤海) was Korean (朝鮮人-韓國人) because Dae Joyong was a Koguryo-Korean (高句麗人) and because most of the ruling class people were Koreans.
Up until now, however, no decisive answer was given regarding the ethnicity issue of the Barhae royal family (the key issue disputed) and ruling class though sometimes it is admitted that Malkal was mostly the ruled class people.

However, the records give a more favorable answer to Korean theory (Japanese as well) than to Chinese, Russian theories.
The first Barhae (渤海國) diplomatic missionaries must have represented themselves as the successors of Koguryo (高句麗) to Japan (日本).

“On 丙申 day, the court sent messengers and endowed Go Jedoek (高齊徳) and others with clothes, hats and shoes (衣服冠履). Barhae Commandery (渤海郡) is the former State of Koguryo (舊高麗國). (淡海朝廷七年冬十月。). The general of Tang State (唐將) Li Ji (李勣) pacified and destroyed Koguryo (高麗). Since then, presentation of tribute (朝貢) discontinued for a long time….

丙申。遣使賜高齊徳等衣服冠履。渤海郡者舊高麗國也。淡海朝廷七年冬十月。唐將李勣伐滅高麗。其後朝貢久絶矣。至是渤海郡王遣寧遠將軍高仁義等廿四人朝聘。而着蝦夷境。仁義以下十六人並被殺害。首領齊徳等八人僅免死而來。(『続日本紀』巻十神亀四年（七二七）十二月丙申廿九)

In 759, which was probably the fourth or fifth visit by Barhae to Japan, the New King, 大欽茂 grandson of Joyong identified himself as King of Koguryo (高麗國王).

"I, King of Koguryo, Dae Heummoo, say....

庚午。帝臨軒。高麗使揚承慶等貢方物。奏曰。高麗國王大欽茂言。承聞。在於日本照臨八方聖明皇帝。登遐天宮。攀號感慕。不能黙止。是以。差輔國將軍揚承慶。歸徳將軍揚泰師等。令齎表文并常貢物入朝。詔曰。高麗國王遥聞先朝登遐天宮。不能黙止。使揚承慶等來慰。聞之感痛。永慕益深。但歳月既改。海内從吉。故不以其礼相待也。又不忘舊心。遣使來貢。勤誠之至。深有嘉尚。(『続日本紀)巻廿二天平宝字三年（七五九）正月庚午三)
Japanese at that time also viewed them as Koguryo people. In the Japanese emperor's letter to Dae Hemmoo, it is said:

"(Japanese) Emperor respectfully sends regards to Koguryo King....."

『続日本紀』巻廿二天平宝字三年（七五九）二月戊辰朔

二月戊戌朔。賜高麗王書曰。天皇敬問高麗國王。使揚承慶等遠渉滄海。來弔國憂。誠表慇懃。深増酷痛。但隨時變礼。聖哲通規。
Koryo Sa (高麗史: History of Koryo Kingdom) also has records on the ethnic background of Dae Joyong and it is clearly recorded he was a Koguryo-Korean (高句麗人).
Regarding the culture, Barhae people claimed that they have the old customs of Buyo (扶餘). Therefore, it is clear that their customs were similar to that of Koguryo (高麗) which originated from Buyo and shared the same language and culture. Thus, it also appears that Barhae ruling class shared the same language with Koguryo-Koreans.

『続日本紀』巻十神亀五年（七二八）正月甲寅十七

甲寅。天皇御中宮。高齊徳等上其王書并方物。其詞曰。武藝啓。山河異域。國土不同。延聽風猷。但増傾仰。伏惟大王。天朝受命。日本開基。奕葉重光。本枝百世。武藝忝當列國。濫惣諸蕃。復高麗之舊居。有扶餘之遺俗。但以天崖路阻。海漢悠悠。

But, regrading the languages of Malkal, I would say, they must have used Malkal-Jurchen-Tungus language. However, it is also possible that many of them could have been bi-lingual. Because when some Barhae missions drifted to Japan, they were mistaken for Silla (新羅) people, which shows that they were using Koguryo (高句麗) language which is a dialect of Silla-Korean language.
Thus, there is no reason to honor Chinese, Russian or Manchu-Tungus theories!

Your history knowledge about Manchuria, Russian Far East, and Korean peniusula is completely delusionary.



Koreans were subjects of Imperial Japan. Does it make Koreans and Korean history Japanese? Better yet, Chosen kingdom was a vassal of Ming Chinese and us Manchus. Does it make koreans Han or Manchus and therefore Chinese?



You remember this? Should I tell you who was the guy kotau to who in the pic?

Edited by Tungus, 27 August 2006 - 04:01 PM.

[WangKon936]

Your history knowledge about Manchuria, Russian Far East, and Korean peniusula is completely delusionary.

Tungus,

Please refrain from using incendiary language like "completely delusionary." Even if you disagree w/a viewpoint, please keep the discussion civil.

[WangKon936]

However, it is undeniable that Qing state arouse from Nuhachi whose ancestors were the subjects of Chosun and earlier, Koryo, Barhae, Koguryo etc. , as I will prove, if you dont' mind! You can disprove that as well!

You are turning this topic into the last one. Please do not discuss Qing/Manchu relation to Korean kingdoms in this thread. This thread is regarding relevant information on Barhae/Bohai. If you do this one more time, I will issue you a 10% warning.

[Tungus]

=====================================================================
遥祭 正白旗。满洲。郭布罗(婉容)

凄风冷雨中多少繁华如梦
曾经万紫千红随风吹落
暮然回首中欢爱宛如烟云
似水年华流走不留影踪

正白旗。满洲。瓜尔佳（鲍氏）

Edited by Tungus, 01 September 2006 - 01:50 AM.

[Tungus]

Looks like that you are NOT really intersted in discussing about the History between the Manchus (Malkal-Jurchen-Manchus) and Koreans (Koguryo-Barhae-Koryo-Chosun), but rather interested in vainly attempting to stigmatize others without grounds. That's not "Manchu" attitude. That's the attitude of many Chinese forumers here. Thus, if your intention is not to discuss the histroy, I will not respond to that because I can also take the same attitude as your but that's improper!

Thus, wishing you to get back to the better position of discussing the "history", I respond:

1) Even when Japanese temporarily occupied Korean peninsula and China, Koreans had their own sovereign (which Chinese and Manchus did not!) and had an exile government that fought against the Japanese invaders (which Chinese also did), thus, there was the continuity of Korea including the peoples' resistence inside the occupied Korea!
Therefore, that Imperial period was legitimate part of Korean History, fighting against Japanese imperialists!

Therefore, there is nothing for you Chinese or the Japanese to claim any part of Korean history. Thus, there is no Japanese history from the beginning that "Korean history was converted to" and "to be restored to the original Korean history"!

Your own reply shows your nationalistic attitude and biased history view. Korea at the time was completely annexed by Japan（日韩合并）. China was semi-colonized and partially occupied. Tell me who has no sovereignity? Plus korean resistence force was only consist of small percentage of overla korean population.

Further, being a "nominal vassaldom" (which I doubt to be!) does not have anything to do with Chinese claim on Korean history because there is no dispute that Chosun was an independent state as to Ming or Qing.

However, it is undeniable that Qing state arouse from Nuhachi whose ancestors were the subjects of Chosun and earlier, Koryo, Barhae, Koguryo etc. , as I will prove, if you dont' mind! You can disprove that as well!

Further, assuming that you are a Manchu (which I find is not, and in fact you are a Catonese Chinese!), Manchus lost their "sovereignty", " language", "culture" and "sense of a distinct nation" and fell under Chinese dominance and control and being used by them for the purpose of the Chinese claiming the legitimate and full parts of Korean history (Koguryo, Barhae, Golden State, ealy Pre-Qing history) !

If the people disapear, there is no history to claim either!

LOL...I am Cantonese? Where do yo get that idea? I don't even understand how to speak or listen Cantonese. FYI, there are numerous Manchus foundations and associations in Being, Harbin, Shengyang, and even in Taiwan. Since when we need a Korean telling us that we disappear? There are Manchu language preservation efforts going on in Heilongjiang, Liaoling, Jiling, Being, and Taiwan. As for Manchu culture, yes, some Manchus forget thier heirtage. But a lot of us DO NOT. What is 满洲勃勃？ Do you know? What is the meaning of being a bannerman? How important the bannermanship to a Manchu? Do you know? Unlike most of koreans, we still know our pre-sinoized Manchu surname. Do you know yours? I know you wish us all Manchus disapper just so you can claim everything related to Manchus and our forefathers' history as yours. Right? Geographic proximicity does not mean we have kidship. You don't like Chinese government messing up with your history. But your are doing the exactly the same things to us Manchus.

The Manchus may claim some of the history as part of those Historical Korean states, but not the Chinese. You have to accept that, if you wanna talk on behlaf of the Manchus! Otherwise, China does not even need to have Manchus, because, though an absurd attempt, China can simply use the 2 million Chao Xian Zu (Korean residents in China) as basis for claiming the whole Korean history. The otherway is also true. Koreans may claim the whole Chinese and Manchu history based on Korean Hua-Qiao (Chinese residents in Korea) and "Manchu-turned to Koreans". You know that that should not be the case!
I dont even need to know however, assuming you are a Manchu (which is not), you have to remember that your ancestors did that for thousands of years to Korean brothers and rulers, including Nurhachi's ancestors.

Sorry....We Manchus and Koreans had no brotherhood. Sorry bud. It's your delusion. At least not that I am aware of. I have never heard of my father or my granda telling me that Manchus and Koreans were some kind of brothers. If anything, we had brotherhood with Mongols because of close culture affinity and intensive intermarriage in Qing dynasty. On the contrary, it's you the Koreans, who had brothhood with Han Chinese. Do yo know 汉军八旗（Han Eight Banner)？That's what us Manchus labeled converted Liaodong Han Chinese and converted Koreans into our Eight Banner system. Mongols and us Manchus had two other seperated bannermen systems.

Dont' say Koreans stole Manchu history, as you claimed somewhere. In fact, I wish you, or the Manchus would not collaborate with the Chinese attempt to steal Korean, Mongol, Tibet, Eeast Turkestan (Xin Jiang) and other Turk history (the Three Dynasties of the Five Dynasty era)!

Further, the Manchus should realize what is the way to survive the accelerating Cinicization process, extinction of a species!!!!!!! and how to preserve their history, culture sense of identity ect. PLEASE take this brotherly advice quite seriously, somewhat harsh it may be!

Again, we Manchus had obtained the mandate of the heaven. We are 中华正统. Why do we have to seperated from China to maintian our heritage? It's you should be aware your own action. What you are trying to do has been done by Imperial Japanese before. Didn't Japanese try to establish kidship with us Manchus just so they can claim to be the common lord of the Tungus empire? Hello...just for your information, both Japanese and Koreans are not Tungus. And what you are doing is stealing our Manchu history.


======================================================

NOW, lets get back to the history discussion, again! and tell me
1) what part of Manchu history was stolen, and
2) why it is Manchu history, using historical data and your logic!

Here, it is Barhae thread. So lets discuss this one first here!

If you have trouble, I will post the data first.

THE STRUCTURE OF BARHAE RULING AND RULLED CLASS
『日本後紀』巻四逸文（『類聚国史』・『日本紀略』）延暦十五年（七九六）四月戊子廿七

（『類聚国史』一九三渤海）十五年四月戊子。

渤海国遣使献方物。其王啓曰。袁緒已具別啓。伏惟、天皇陛下、動止万福、寝膳勝常、嵩琳視息荀延。奄及祥制、官僚感義、奪志抑情、起続洪基、祇統先烈。朝維依旧、封域如初、顧自思惟実荷顧眷、而滄溟括地、波浪漫天、奉膳無由、徒増傾仰。謹差■諌大夫工部郎中呂定琳等、済海起居、兼修旧好。其少土物、具在別状。荒迷不次。又告喪啓曰。上天降禍、祖大行大王、以大興五十七年三月四日薨背。善隣之義、必問吉凶。限以送滄溟、所以緩告、嵩琳無状招禍，不自滅亡。不孝罪咎酷罸罹苦。謹状■奉啓、荒迷不次。孤孫大嵩琳頓首。又伝奉在唐学問僧永忠等所附書。』

渤海国者、高麗之故地也。天命開別天皇七年、高麗王高氏、為唐所滅也。後以天之真宗豊祖父天皇二年、大祚栄始建渤海国、和銅六年、受唐冊立其国。延袤二千里、無州県館駅、処々有村里。皆靺鞨部落。其百姓者、靺鞨多、土人少。皆以土人為村長。大村曰都督、次曰刺史。其下百姓皆曰首領。土地極寒、不宜水田。俗頗知書。自高氏以来、朝貢不絶。」

■諌大夫、匡諌大夫（『日本紀略』）戊子。渤海国遣使献方物。其王啓曰。云々。」渤海国者、高麗之故地也。天命開別天皇七年、高麗王高氏、為唐所滅也。後以天之真宗豊祖父天皇二年、始建渤海国、和銅六年、受唐冊立其国。

Here, pay attention to:

"Barhae (渤海国) is the ancient territory of Koguryo (高麗)......BARHAE"the territory is abou 2000 li ....there are no horse stations, there are villages everywhere...all Malkal villages (靺鞨部落). Among the common people (百姓者), there are a lot of Malkals (靺鞨多), but the Natives (土人少) are less than them. Everywhere, the Natives (土人) are the the Heads of the Villages (村長). In big villages, they are called Governor (Dudu: 都督). In smaller ones, they are called Administrator (刺史). In further smaller ones, the common people call them the Chietans (首領)...

皆以土人為村長。大村曰都督、次曰刺史。其下百姓皆曰首領。

Remember the natives (土人) means Koguryo-Koreans (高麗).

The Malkals began to fill the areas which were left by the fleeding Koreans and by those Koreans who were forcibly taken to inland China. Thus, in the beginning of Barhae of Dae Joyong, the population is recorded to be about 400,000 which is several times less than 650,000 households of Koguryo (app. 3 million). Thus, at the time when the Japanese recorded this, Malkal population was bigger than Koguryo population!

However, the Koguryo-Koreans still maintained the ruling positions, like Dae Joyong himself who became King, whereas Keul Sabiu (Qi Sibiyu), a true Malkal, became a chieftain of the Malkals.

This fact that Koreans were mainly the ruling class than the Tungus is also plentifully verified if you analize the names of those missionaries to Japan. Of the more than 20 persons, recorded, as kind of heads of the delegation, there are only 4-5 persons who use Tungus names and the rest of them, have the same family names with Koguryo people!

Any reason to say Barhae history was the Manchu's and not Koreans'?? But, DONT say it is Chinese!

This is your own intepreation. The original text you quoted did not mention the natives were Koguryo. And to have a meaningful discussion, please restraint from bringing "koreans" into the duscussion .

Edited by Tungus, 27 August 2006 - 09:12 PM.

[Wujiang]

Cool it guys.

Both of you tone yourselves down.

[Juchechosunmanse]

1) Even when Japanese temporarily occupied Korean peninsula and China, Koreans had their own sovereign (which Chinese and Manchus did not!) and had an exile government that fought against the Japanese invaders (which Chinese also did), thus, there was the continuity of Korea including the peoples' resistence inside the occupied Korea!

During WWII, Korea was a sovereign nation but China was not? How about the annexation of Korea by Japan in 1910? How about the "Govenor of Chosun government" in Seoul? What happened that made China lose its sovereignty? The Nanking and Chungching governments were not legitimate Chinese governments?

Further, assuming that you are a Manchu (which I find is not, and in fact you are a Catonese Chinese!),

Wow. How did you find him a Cantonese? Why?

Remember again, the USA may claim the whole history of all the countries in the world, including Chinese, using the Chinese false logic.

No the analogy doesn't apply. Nearly all Manchurians have become Chinese, Manchurians don't have their own country. Only what, a few millions Chinese Americans are in the US vs. 1.3 billion Chinese in the PRC? Yes, if all Chinese have become Americans and lost their country, then yes, the history of the Chinese is part of the US history (look at the native Americans in the US).

The Manchus may claim some of the history as part of those Historical Korean states, but not the Chinese. You have to accept that, if you wanna talk on behlaf of the Manchus! Otherwise, China does not even need to have Manchus, because, though an absurd attempt, China can simply use the 2 million Chao Xian Zu (Korean residents in China) as basis for claiming the whole Korean history. The otherway is also true. Koreans may claim the whole Chinese and Manchu history based on Korean Hua-Qiao (Chinese residents in Korea) and "Manchu-turned to Koreans". You know that that should not be the case!

That's very an absurd notion. And that's why you don't see the PRC claiming the history of Koreans to be their own or the ROK/DRPK claiming the history of Chinese to be their own.

[intem]

You are turning this topic into the last one. Please do not discuss Qing/Manchu relation to Korean kingdoms in this thread. This thread is regarding relevant information on Barhae/Bohai. If you do this one more time, I will issue you a 10% warning.

Although what i would like to say is something irrelevant to the topic however, it seems that chinghiz had sincerely prooved to himself that he was wrong(although he did not say it but i can see it since he moved his focus on to the manchu) about the claims in the ethnic huangdi thread and ethnicity of each states during warring state era. Now he's on to relating the manchu and koreans, gee i can't imagine his that kind of person. Warning should had been giving earlier rather than now mods.

Edited by intem, 28 August 2006 - 05:32 AM.

[caocao74]

...., gee i can't imagine his that kind of person. Warning should had been giving earlier rather than now mods.

But wangkon has given that warning so that's that. More warnings may be needed if the last comments are copied, which unfortunately was just an attempt by intem to put the boot in; not helpful.