332 replies to this topic

[WangKon936]

But, at the time of Huang Di, the Yellow King, there was NO EMPIRE therefore, lets call him as Yellow King.

Let's not. The standard title given is the Yellow Emperor. There is no reason (other then to aggitate other members) to call him otherwise. How would you like it of someone called Pak Hyeokgeose a legendary chieftain instead of a king?

[urofpersia]

As for Sianbi, see my response to YUN, but think about why I say we need to respect the original pronunciations of the words, if possible.

'Sian' as you render it is 'Xian' in Hanyu Pinyin. the sound is the same. So I think no issues here right? So it would appear your issue is more with ‘bei'.

But its perfectly fine you see, for in Hakka one of the Chinese languages regarded by some as very ancient, it is pronounced as 'Bi' So 'Sianbi' or 'Xianbi' would be how 鲜卑 is pronounced in Chinese. Hakka that is.

Oh, and it doesn't stop there you see. You know the Song dynasty? Its probably better rendered as 'Sung' under Wades-Giles, closer to its original pronunciation as well. Let's not forget the Tang dynasty. 'Tong' would be closer too, just ask the Cantonese and Hakka.

As I have mentioned before, its more about standardisation and communication. We use Song, Tang, Xianbei, etc, because that's how modern historians render them. If one day they decide Sianbi is better, fine, we will follow suit.

In the meantime we respect your right to use the terms you prefer as long as you explain what you mean by them, and hopefully you will extend the same courtesy, for afterall we are only following convention.

[Tungus]

I can understnad why Koreans and Chinese called the Jurchens as "野人". While neighboring countries called Korea "君子之國", including Confucius, probably! Haha!

And now your definition of Chinese is your friend again for your argument sake….hahahaha. FYI, neighboring countries called Silla "君子之國", not Korea. Korea did not exist back then. And don’t confuse Silla with Koguryo/Paekji. They were very different from the beinging of the time.

Its your choice to be brothers with others or not. Looks like that you prefer being the slaves of others and being extinguished rather than brothers of equality and affection.

Remember 兔死狗烹 under the beautiful disguise of "滿漢一家 (Manchus and Chinese are one family)", which basically means the "extermination" of one of them under acculturation or otherwise. Which one would be the one to be "exterminated" is clear here!.

All Barbarians who claimed to be 中華 faced the same fate in the history. Who knows this will not be another case??


"Hu (胡: Barbarian) Riots (乱)" was simply the result of Chinese concept which I don't like! To that extent I fully agree with your rage!

Isn’t this your purpose all alone? Stealing us Manchu forefather’ history as your own, twisting Sushen peoples’ history, asserting the kinship between Silla people and Huimo peoples without solid proof. Now you are here preaching me that us Manchus should alienate ourselves from China?

You, the nationalistic Silla descents, ain’t us Manchus' friends, let alone a brotherhood. And you know what make us Manchus different from nationalistic Silla descents like you? We went our way to MAKE HISTORY. You FANTASIZE history. (my comments are not directing toward general Korean population btw.)

There are no such things as "Ama" in 三田渡 Stone monument though written in Manchu, Mongol and Chinese. Further, assuming what you say is true (which is not), there are several records that the other way around was also true. The Jurchens also called Koryo as "Amai Gurun" (middle of Koryo period) and the ancestors of Nurhachi also did the same (Early Chosun). (I will find the source, if I have time, but here let's focus on Barhae first).

Don’t twist whatever I said. You know exactly was I was referring to regarding to the story behind三田渡 Stone monument.

You don't know whether it is "my" language or not. But, put it aside, you cannot be sure whether the Chinese 兄 was Chinese or not. I view it a variation of Ahun (阿兄), Ahaang, Akhaan, Ahing, Akhaa, Age, Agu (Turkic, Mongol, Tungus etc) which are all Altaic words in the ancient times. The Chinese got rid of 阿 and used only 兄, and only in written form, not in oral language, whereas Koreans used only the other.

I know next you are going to claim jintaizu wanyanahguda （金太祖 完颜阿古达）a Korean . Hahahahahhahaa. And don’t worry I won’t run. It’s fun for us Manchu to correct your misbehavior. Just a little busy with my cousin’s house for sale right now. And it’s college football season you know.

[Juchechosunmanse]

My door is still wide open to Manchus so, as you like if you can free yourself from 滿漢一家 trap.

What's wrong with 滿漢一家? How about 滿漢蒙回藏朝壯布依東維吾爾哈薩克東鄉傣彜.... 一家? After all the PRC is made up of 56 ethnic groups. Coming from a relatively homogeneous society, you need to embrace the concept of diversity and multi-culturalism.

[DearCoolZ]

Further, I have already clearly proven that the Manchus and Chinese have stolen or attempting to steal Korean history such as Koguryo and Barhae

it doesnt justify of what you are doing here,that is,destoring chinese history.

.

By the way, don't assume I am a Silla descendant. I may be one of the direct descendant of Koguryo King or somebody else, say Chinghiz Khaan, the Mongol!

like who cares who you are descendanted from. the last direct descendant of genghis khan:alam khan was dead over 80 years ago.but noone here is stopping you from wishful thinking.

My door is still wide open to Manchus so, as you like if you can free yourself from 滿漢一家 trap.

yeah right,like you are some kind of a big saviour to the manchus.

go to 吉祥满族 forum then.

Well, he is a Korean descendant and nobody can deny that, but he became a Jurchen,

right,every famous people that have walked on the earth regardless their nationality or ethnic were all once korean.

like Koseunji (Gao Xuan Zhi) became a Tang Sianbi man.

he didn't become a xianbei man. he became a 唐 tang dynasty man. no such thing as sianbi tang dynasty.

In fact, a big portion of Jin people were the descendants of Koguryo, Barhae and Silla,

keep on dreaming. the jurchens of jin were different from those koguryo, bohai and silla from the very start of thier own civilazations. the funny thing is that the silla was located in the southeast of korea pennisula while the jurchens were mianly located in the land of manchuria.

including Kim Hambo, the founding father. Thus, to that extent, it is not only Jurchen history, but also Korean history as well. But, it has nothing to do with Chinese history!

aw........poor manchus. first wanyan aguda was a korean and now this............ofcause it has gotta alot to do with chinese history,they built an empire in china,defined the modern day borders of china,compleated the kangxi dictionary, ruled china under the mandate of heaven, adopted chinese language and written system and so on

dont try to start an affinity with the manchus, chosun dynasty was constantly harrased by the manchus and many of their mens were taken as slaves.

wasn't the founding father of the koryo dynasty,wang kon a lelang han descendant.doeant that make koryo also chinese history?

Edited by DearCoolZ, 05 September 2006 - 04:20 PM.

[DearCoolZ]

What a novel theory!!!. I will be happy if you can show that!!! Hahaha!

From Ancestry.com of all places:

"Korean: there is one Chinese character for the surname Wang. Some sources indicate that there are fifteen Wang clans, but only two can be identified: the Kaesong Wang clan and the Chenam Wang clan. The Kaesong Wang clan, which originated in China, ruled the Korean peninsula for almost five hundred years as the ruling dynasty of the Koryo period (918–1392). There are some indications that the Kaesong Wang clan was present in the ancient Choson Kingdom (?194 bc). When the Chonju Yi clan seized power in 1392 and established the Choson kingdom, many of the members of the Kaesong Wang clan changed their names and went into hiding to avoid being persecuted by the new ruling dynasty. The Chenam Wang clan is also of Chinese origin. The Chenam Wang clan is much smaller than the Kaesong Wang clan."

Ah... got confused by the JAPANESE pronounciation of the scholar's name. The Japanese pronounciation of 王仁 is Wani and the Korean pronounciation is Wang In. Yeah, it's certainly possible that Wang In was a descendant of Lelang refugees or it could of been Chinese immigrants that arrived to Paekje through other means. We can't say for sure as to the best of my knowledge Japanese sources say that Wang In was a "man from Kudara (Paekje)" and nothing else. I'm more partial to Wang Kon, the founder of the Koryo Dynasty as being distantly descended from Lelang colonists because at least his home town was in former Lelang territory.

Edited by DearCoolZ, 05 September 2006 - 08:59 PM.

[Yun]

Further, the anlysis of Sianbi language clearly shows it has nothing to do with Manchu, Turkic language. Here, see my copy rightable theory:


魏 虜 -南 齊 書 卷 五 十 七, 列 傳 第 三 十 八
　 　 　 魏 虜
魏 虜 ， 匈 奴 種 也 ， 姓 托 跋 氏 。 晉 永 嘉 六 年 ， 并 州 刺史 劉 琨 為 屠 各 胡 劉 聰 所 攻 ， 索 頭 猗 盧 遣 子 曰 利 孫 將 兵 救琨 於 太 原 ， 猗 盧 入 居 代 郡 ， 亦 謂 鮮 卑 。 被 髮 左 衽 ， 故 呼為 索 頭

...... 國 中 呼 內 左 右 為 「 直 真」 ， 外 左 右 為 「 烏 矮 真 」， 曹 局 文 書 吏 為 「 比 德 真 」 ， 檐 衣 人 為 「 樸 大 真 」 ， 帶仗 人 為 「 胡 洛 真 」 ， 通 事 人 為 「 乞 萬 真 」 ， 守 門 人 為 「可 薄 真 」 ， 偽 臺 乘 驛 賤 人 為 「 拂 竹 真 」 ， 諸 州 乘 驛 人 為「 咸 真 」 ， 殺 人 者 為 「 契 害 真 」 ， 為 主 出 受 辭 人 為 「 折潰 真 」 ， 貴 人 作 食 人 為 「 附 真 」 。 三 公 貴 人 ， 通 謂 之 「羊 真 」 。


Of the Sianbi vocabulary recorded above,

國 中 呼 內 左 右 為 「 直 真(Jichin) 」 ，
外 左 右 為 「 烏 矮 真(Uwaichin) 」，
曹 局 文 書 吏 為 「 比 德 真 (Bitechin: Bichikchi: Bithe-<Writing-brush>-user:Secretarial officer, Writing officer) 」 ，
檐 衣 人 為 「 樸 大 真 (Budachin: Bodaa<color, dye>-chi : Colorator)」 ，
帶仗 人 為 「 胡 洛 真 (Horakchin: Weapon-carrier)」 ，
通 事 人 為 「 乞 萬 真 (Helmanchin: Helmachi: Translator) 」 ，
守 門 人 為 「可 薄 真 (Kabachin: Khaakchi: Door-Closer) 」 ，
偽 臺 乘 驛 賤 人 為 「 拂 竹 真 (Buljuchin: Boljoochi: Time-arranger for horse-riding for message conveyance)」 ，
諸 州 乘 驛 人 為「 咸 真 (Khiamchin: Jiamchin: Road-rider) ，
殺 人 者 為 「 契 害 真 (Kitkhaichin: Hyatgachi: Sword-user, Thruster: Assassin) 」 ，
為 主 出 受 辭 人 為 「 折潰 真 (Jekhoichin: Joeoekchin: Message-carrier)」 ，
貴 人 作 食 人 為 「 附 真 (Buchin: Boorchi: Cook)」 。
三 公 貴 人 ， 通 謂 之 「羊 真 (Yangchin: Yamchin: Department-head) 」

As for the first two words, I have a couple of candiates, but I have not determined on which. But all these examples show that they are pure Mongol language! There are no such Manchu-Tungus words as the above, except for one arguably similar word Bithesi, which the Manchus probably adopted either from Sianbi-Mongols or Koreans.

The late Prof. Peter Boodberg of University of California Berkeley (not Harvard) looked at the same words in 1936 and concluded the Tuoba Xianbei language was "essentially Turkish, with a certain admixture of Mongol elements. Except in a few cases... seemingly Mongol forms can always be traced back to Turkish or proto-Turkish originals."

If you are interested I can e-mail you Boodberg's article. Just PM me your address.

[WangKon936]

wasn't the founding father of the koryo dynasty,wang kon a lelang han descendant.doeant that make koryo also chinese history?

I supose you can make the claim that Wang Kon was a Lelang descendent, but for what reason? The Wang clan by that time had been in Korea for at least 6 centuries and were throughly Korean (first Koguryo then Unified Silla subjects) in every way. Nothing really "Chinese" about Wang Kon's clan survived and they were throughly assimilated. In terms of genetics, the Wang clan probably has more "Mongol" content then Chinese now considering that they married Yuan princesses the last 100 years of the Koryo Dynasty.

Besides, what does the Kaesong Wang clan's origins have to do with Barhae/Bohai or even Jurchens/Manchu for that matter???

[DearCoolZ]

I supose you can make the claim that Wang Kon was a Lelang descendent, but for what reason? The Wang clan by that time had been in Korea for at least 6 centuries and were throughly Korean (first Koguryo then Unified Silla subjects) in every way. Nothing really "Chinese" about Wang Kon's clan survived and they were throughly assimilated. In terms of genetics, the Wang clan probably has more "Mongol" content then Chinese now considering that they married Yuan princesses the last 100 years of the Koryo Dynasty.

Besides, what does the Kaesong Wang clan's origins have to do with Barhae/Bohai or even Jurchens/Manchu for that matter???

read my responses to chinghiz

What a novel theory!!!. I will be happy if you can show that!!! Hahaha! by chinghiz

[WangKon936]

read my responses to chinghiz

Chinghiz's was responding to your original comment about Wang Kon and Lelang. Again, which has absolutely nothing to do with Bohai/Barhae and Jurchen/Manchu. In other words, Chinghiz was provoked (baited?) by you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and consider your provocation unintentional at this point.

I have made a fair amount of effort to keep this topic ON topic and both chingiz and tungus have been given warnings for their past willingness to turn this into a flame fest. A similar warning can be issued to you if you decide to go into flame territory.

[urofpersia]

So, he added "Huang Huang Shang (Bright Bright Upper) in front of Di" which meant almost the same thing as Wang (King) during Pre-Zhou era. During Zhou era, you know many warring states later claimed King (Wang) as well.

Thus, Di (King) originally was transfomed into Huang Di (Emperor) after Qin Shi Emperor (Huang Di). Thus, if you do not give effect to the historical context, It 's a NONsense for the purpose of history debate.

Huang Di came about from 三皇五帝 San Huang Wu Di which referred to mythical rulers during the Xia and/or pre-Xia eras, they have been variously regarded as deities, and even today there are different sayings as to who actually are the San Huang and the Wu Di. As you said it was during Qin Shihuangdi's time that the term 皇帝 came about.

When we write 'Yellow Emperor', we are not claiming there was an Empire then, simply this is a convention that has already been established and thus we continue to use it. Using ‘Yellow King‘ now would be confusing to others as well. When someone does a search for 'Yellow Emperor', I want them to be able to find CHF.

In fact the term 'Emperor' as a translation for 皇帝 is not necessarily a good one, just one that is commonly used and thus we use it.