[jukyo]

Gyeongju Kim clan have existed since the Silla era and is now the biggest clan in Korea. It was founded by a Turkic ancestor of Xiongnu (Eastern Hun) ethnicty.

Jin Midi or Kim Iljae (134 BC-86 BC) (Traditional Chinese: 金日磾/Hangul: 김일제/Revised Romanization: Kim Iljae), courtesy name Wengshu (翁叔), formally Marquess Jing of Du (秺敬侯), was a prominent official of the Chinese dynasty Han Dynasty of Xiongnu ethnicity. He served as coregent early in the reign of Emperor Zhao of Han, and his descendants would later migrate to the neighboring kingdom of Shilla (modern-day Korea), where they would establish the Gyeongju Kim clan, and rule for much of its near-1000 year existence.

Korean progeny
Various sources cite Kim Alji, a direct descendant of Kim Iljae, as the progenitor of the Gyeongju Kim clan, during the time of Shilla.

After the death of Jin Midi, his descendants' power in the Han court became increasingly influential. Rival court officials began to target the Jin family by using the family's Xiongnu origins against it. A major power struggle began and lasted until Wang Mang's death. The Jin family married into Wang Mang's family, and a daughter of the Jin family became one of Wang Mang's favorite wives. Through this connection with Wang Mang and his Xin Dynasty, the Jin family became ever more powerful. After the overthrow of Wang Mang and the Xin Dynasty by Liu Xiu (Emperor Guangwu of Han) in 25, the Jin family fled China as a result of the change of dynasties. The Jin (pronounced Kim in Korean) family fled to the Korean Peninsula, where the descendants of Gojoseon lived.

Gojoseon and the Xiongnu people were of the same Ural-Altaic language root and people, and therefore, they were able to enter Goguryeo and migrate down to Shilla. Finding refuge in Gyeongju, the capital of Shilla, the Kim family would eventually rise to prominence within the Shillan royal court.

According to legend, in the year 65 CE, an infant Kim Alji was discovered in Sirim and adopted by King Talhae of Shilla. The legend is interpreted as King Talhae accepting Kim Alji into his court, after his family's flight from China. Records show Kim Alji's influence rose to great heights in the royal court, and with Talhae's passing was offered the throne. Although Alji declined, six generations later in the year 262, his direct descendant would be crowned as the 13th King, Michu of Shilla. He would be the first of the Kim family, in the shift of power away from the Bak and Seok clans, to become the fully designated ruler of the kingdom, where the power would remain for much of the kingdom's near-thousand year existence.

Sources
Book of Han, vol. 68.
Zizhi Tongjian, vols. 19, 20, 21, 22, 23.
Han Ji, vols. 13, 15, 16[1].
http://www.yangco.ne...u...11&wr_id=55
http://daedongc.co.k...=217&section=11




In fact I read this further and most Kim clans have a common Turkic ancestor of Xiongnu ethnicity, where some descendants of Kim Iljae even established Gaya. Could this mean many Koreans with surname Kim have a Turkic ancestor?

This post has been edited by jukyo: 30 June 2008 - 06:52 AM

[LongMa]

Facinating...do most Koreans know this?

[SNK_1408]

LongMa, on Jul 1 2008, 01:24 AM, said:

Facinating...do most Koreans know this?

No, but most Koreans knows about some connection between Silla and Eastern Hun and possibly Xanbei origin as well.

I think it's over exaggeration to directly connect Kim lineage with Eastern Hun; but it's true that Silla was the most nomadic origins compared to Kori (Goguryeo-Jolbon-Buyeo).

Some of ancient Silla's custom involves marrying member of the family (i.e. sister and cousin); according to experts some royal member of Silla clan have direct linkage to Xanbei and Turkic origin.

According to Samguksagi; Silla was founded by the Bak clan (aka Park, Pak); their origin is Go-Joseon; and they didn't used King title; but did used Geoseogan (or Geoseulhan -거슬한) title sort of like Great Khan and later used the Isaguem as ruler title. This sort of practice was common among the three Hans of Korean peninsula; alternatively according to most Korean scholars; Silla is from Jinhan confederacy.

The reason why their state name changed to Silla is because they were also known as Seonabeol 서나벌 (also Seorabeol, Seobeol, Sara, or Saro, Sinna) - which alternatively means The Capital, hence the today's Sth Korea's capital name is Seoul.

Kim clan is just a part of the 3 largest clans of Silla (Bak or Pak, Seok and Kim); some says Bak is from GoJoseon, Seok is native, and Kim is from Turkic background. Each royal clan member shared the power mainly because of growing power of Goguryeo and Baekje.

Most Koreans with Kim surname doesn't always mean they are directly from the first Kim clan of Korea; most adopted hero or popular surname such as Kim or Yi.

Kim Yusin (aka Sandara) was the most popular warlord (Commander of Silla during Silla's invasion of Baekje & Goguryeo) by Korean standard and many Koreans with no surnames adopted Kim as favorate family name because of the meaning 'Gold' or 'Golden'.

And most of Silla's arts and relics have strong influence of central asian origins; which Baekje wasn't.

[jukyo]

Kim lineage with Eastern Hun is true. Many adopted Kim surnames but that means they aren't in the main Kim clans (Gyeongju). 80% of the Kims in Korea have a Turkic lineage.

This post has been edited by jukyo: 01 July 2008 - 01:09 AM

[332 Manchuria]

jukyo, on Jul 1 2008, 01:04 AM, said:

Kim lineage with Eastern Hun is true. Many adopted Kim surnames but that means they aren't in the main Kim clans (Gyeongju). 80% of the Kims in Korea have a Turkic lineage.

Okay. So, does all this mean that Shilla was a "Turkic Kingdom" founded by Turkic people or does it mean that Koreans founded Shilla and a Turkic warlord emigrated to Shilla at some point and his family became powerful? Please clarify.

[jukyo]

332 Manchuria, on Jul 1 2008, 02:30 AM, said:

Okay. So, does all this mean that Shilla was a "Turkic Kingdom" founded by Turkic people or does it mean that Koreans founded Shilla and a Turkic warlord emigrated to Shilla at some point and his family became powerful? Please clarify.

There was no single "Korean" ethnicity. Goguryeo were mostly Buyeo people from the northeast (present day eastern Manchuria), Baekje were a mix of Goguryeo and Mahan people and Silla were a mix of natives from Gojoseon and Turkic people.

Park Hyogose started Silla. Then a Turkic prince called Kim Alji arrived from Central Asia to Silla, and his relatives also went to Silla and started Gaya (later annexed by Silla). Kim Alji and descednants formed the Gyeongju Kim clan and nearly all Kim clans branched off from this clan. The largest clan of Silla were the Kim clans and this clan dominated much of Silla before Goryeo took over. So yes, the Gyeongju Kim clan (which was Turkic clan) ruled Silla for nearly 1000 years but it was first started by Park clan.

This post has been edited by jukyo: 01 July 2008 - 04:11 AM

[SNK_1408]

Kim lineage with Eastern Hun is true. Many adopted Kim surnames but that means they aren't in the main Kim clans (Gyeongju). 80% of the Kims in Korea have a Turkic lineage.

Most modern Kim surnames are adopted name; there is another big Kim clan, Andong Kim clan; which was the most powerful Kim clan during the last reign of Joseon Dynasty. And because of this many Koreans with Kim name are also from this line.

I think Kim IL Sung and his son Kim Jong IL are also adopted Kim surname, otherwise they are belongs to Andong Kim.

332 Manchuria, on Jul 1 2008, 06:30 PM, said:

Okay. So, does all this mean that Shilla was a "Turkic Kingdom" founded by Turkic people or does it mean that Koreans founded Shilla and a Turkic warlord emigrated to Shilla at some point and his family became powerful? Please clarify.

Don't be confused with simple ancestry theory with clanship of Silla.
Yes, the original Kim clan were from Turkic origins but the founder of Silla was from Gojoseon line; because of growing power of Kim clan in Korean peninsula, eventually Silla did power sharing among different clans.

The Power sharing is something that most Chinese dynasties did not even considered, this is why many Koreanic states were able to exist longer than Chinese states.

Btw, Kim and Bak (i.e. Pak/Park) wasn't only ones; there is Seok clan, they were also native of Jinhan federation.

This post has been edited by SNK_1408: 02 July 2008 - 10:20 PM

[mariusj]

SNK_1408, on Jul 2 2008, 09:11 PM, said:

The Power sharing is something that most Chinese dynasties did not even considered, this is why many Koreanic states were able to exist longer than Chinese states.

Btw, Kim and Bak (i.e. Pak/Park) wasn't only ones; there is Seok clan, they were also native of Jinhan federation.

Unified Silla lasted from 668-935, which isn't that long.
Joseon technically lasted from 1392-1897, but after it capitulated to Qing, I am not too sure I would say hum, its not really a sovereign state, but I might be wrong.

And power sharing is the last thing on my list why there are problem in the life time of Chinese dynasties. Besides, how many UNIFIED Koreanic states are there?

[MING-LOYALIST]

Jin Midi(Kim Iljae) 's real surname was Luanti which was the royal surname of the xiongnus(He was a xiongnu prince).
Jin/Kim was a surname bestowed onto him by emperor Han wu di.

[nee]

in this context wouldnt the term Turkic be the same implication as the term (East) Asian?

[MING-LOYALIST]

Turkic as in Kazakh , Tuvans, Yakuts, Kirgiz , turkmen , tartars and Uyghurs(nomadic people living northwest of china).

Xiongnu probrably spoke turkic language.

Their leader was known as the "majesty the son of heaven.", in chinese its "Chengli hutu chanyu" rendered as "Tengriqut Janeyu." by some linguists.

[jukyo]

Andong Kim clan was also started by a Xiongnu. Probably about 1 million Kims in Korea are fake, but most are real descendants of Kim Alji and other Xiongnu refugees.

And Koreans are not Turkic people but they are still genetic relatives. Turkic people are not East Asian, they are an ethnic group living in central Asia, such as Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Turkmen, Uyghurs.

This post has been edited by jukyo: 03 July 2008 - 07:18 AM

[Sinoid]

It is somewhat interesting that the time of unified Silla pretty much corresponds with the Tang dynasty period. We somewhat know that Tang had quite good relationship with the Silla Kingdom.

I have seen many discussions about the Turkic connections of the Li family. There is a lot of discussions about whether the Xian Bei was a Turkic or Mongolic.

In this thread http://www.chinahist...showtopic=23855 Yun gives a good argument of who the Xian Bei were.

This post has been edited by Sinoid: 03 July 2008 - 07:28 AM

[jukyo]

Sinoid, on Jul 3 2008, 07:25 AM, said:

It is somewhat interesting that the time of unified Silla pretty much corresponds with the Tang dynasty period. We somewhat know that Tang had quite good relationship with the Silla Kingdom.

I have seen many discussions about the Turkic connections of the Li family. There is a lot of discussions about whether the Xian Bei was a Turkic or Mongolic.

In this thread http://www.chinahist...showtopic=23855 Yun gives a good argument of who the Xian Bei were.

Xianbei=/= Xiongnu.

Xiongnu were definitely Turkic.

Xianbei were Tungusic.

When you refer to Li family what does that mean? Are you referring to the royal family of Tang dynasty? Is there a clan system in China as well?

Btw the first Li in China was Zhuanxu, who was the grandson of the Yellow Emperor, who was Huaxia (Chinese).

This post has been edited by jukyo: 03 July 2008 - 09:16 AM

[Sinoid]

jukyo, on Jul 3 2008, 11:09 PM, said:

Xianbei=/= Xiongnu.

Xiongnu were definitely Turkic.

Xianbei were Tungusic.

When you refer to Li family what does that mean? Are you referring to the royal family of Tang dynasty? Is there a clan system in China as well?

Btw the first Li in China was Zhuanxu, who was the grandson of the Yellow Emperor, who was Huaxia (Chinese).

Yes, I was referring to the royal family of Tang Dynasty. As for whether they were connected with grandson of the Yellow Emperor, I really don't know. We do know that many non Han groups by then would have adopted sinofied surnames.

There were certainly clans in China but I don't think they can be surname specific.

We cannot be 100% sure that Xiong Nu were all Turkic. It does depend which school of thought you lean towards. There are arguments to link them to Turkic, Mongolic and Tungusic partly because the Xiong Nu were not all the same tribe, more of a confederation.

Same with Xian Bei all being Tungusic. There are also arguments that puts Xian Bei being Proto-Mongolic or Proto-Turkic.

This post has been edited by Sinoid: 03 July 2008 - 11:24 AM