19 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

We already have a discussion about male chauvanism at http://www.chinahist...showtopic=10747, but it focuses more on literature side.

For those who have studied chinese history or culture, you will notice that there was a large degree of male chauvanism in ancient chinese society. Even the earliest chinese poetry book (book of odes - Shijing 诗经 - a confucian classics) tended to favour male over female. If you ask any chinese today (esp. those who are influenced by traditional chinese culture), many will favour giving birth to a son, rather than a daughter. Let's be honest, although many people do not mind, they will still be 'more happy' if a son is being born.

In traditional chinese culture (esp. as influenced by Confucian family ancestry lineage), a son is favoured because the son is able to carry on the lineage to the next generation (known as "chuan zong jie dai 传宗接代"). A daughter in turn is thought to be 'married out of the family '( i.e. the water that is thrown out of the bucket, never to return 泼出去的水）. This favourism towards male (重男轻女） had dominated China for almost 2,000 years, until western culture (which called for emancipation of woman and equality of sex) came into China during early 20th century. When communism came into full force in 1949, China called for even equal status for man and woman, which resulted in 'liberation of chinese woman'.

I personally think almost all chinese dynasty were male chauvanistic, except Tang dynasty which tended to be more liberal. Empress Wu Zetian was the 1st female emperor (empress) in chinese history. She had challenged a male-dominated society, but even during her reign, there was even some biasedness towards her.

Although I'm influenced by Confucianism, I've never doubted Confucianism's role in male chauvanism. In traditional confucian society, a female's role is simply to take care of the husband, the family and the kids, as shown by the common saying "男主外，女主内" (male takes care of outside, female takes care of inside in the family). Confucianism's male chauvanism had also influenced Korea and Japan, which tend to be rather male chauvanistic. The man is only responsible for affairs outside family (namely work).

I personally think that Korea is the most male chauvanistic country in Asia, largely because it was 'more confucian' than China. In Korea, a woman who smokes in public will often be 'shunned' off, whereas for a guy, it's ok. Alot of Korean guys do not like their wife to work. If you happen to watch lots of korean drama, you will notice that woman still takes charge of many family affairs and household matters., although certain decision is still decided by the father (male-dominated). Needless to say, this is quite similar to what many chinese housewife encountered and shared the same experience..that's why Korean drama series sell like hot cakes in Asia.

I've been brought up under in a rather male-chauvanistic confucian family. Just to give you an example of what I mean by Confucian family, for instance, I'm expected to take care of my parents (as a way of filial piety). I have been brought up to learn to listen and be obedient to my parents or any elderlies (never to rebuke them back). I have been expected to bear the responsibility of providing the economic well-being of the family and to pass on offsprings (to next generation). My wife is 'expected' to listen obediently to advice from my parents and never to rebuke them back. My Dad is still the 'head' of the family. Only after he passed away will I take over. In my family, males are 'not expected' to do household chores, although I sometimes help out my wife.

Note that in ancient China, if a Dad passes away, normally the eldest son will take over to become the 'head' of the family.

What do you think of this? Any comments are appreciated.

Were you brought up in male chauvanistic family?

[Lin Duanwen]

Let's be honest, although many people do not mind, they will still be 'more happy' if a son is being born.

Very true!

Woman must obey her father before marriage (未嫁从父), she must obey her husband after marriage (既嫁从夫) and she should also obey her sons after the death of her husband (夫死从子) = male chauvanism?

[moobie]

I'd agree but I don't believe broadly speaking "Westerners" have true gender equality. Only Scandinavia does, and even in Scandinavia violence and rape against women is very common.

Male sexism is pretty rampant all over the world, Chinese chauvinism is unique in that it does suffocate women's freedoms but there isn't the flip side of extreme violence and intimidation of women that occurs in Africa or Europe.

[Pattie]

I'd agree but I don't believe broadly speaking "Westerners" have true gender equality. Only Scandinavia does, and even in Scandinavia violence and rape against women is very common.

Male sexism is pretty rampant all over the world, Chinese chauvinism is unique in that it does suffocate women's freedoms but there isn't the flip side of extreme violence and intimidation of women that occurs in Africa or Europe.

I'm surprised you missed the Arab world in your short list.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I don't believe it has anything to do with cultural tradition and everything to do with economics. None of the well off families in big cities that I know of favor a son over a daughter, especially if they have any association with the CCP. My mother's side is more CCP inclined since my grandfather served in a CCP government position; they don't even have a subconscious division between male and female. My father's side was more traditional and my paternal great grandparents served under both the Qing and the ROC government, so they were very indoctrinated by traditional Confucian educations. Yet, the only difference I see between them in treating women is a conceptual and theoretical one. My paternal side still holds the male-female dichotomy, but more in line of "separate but equal". They don't think having a daughter is a bad thing; in fact they even favor a daughter since all of my father's siblings were males. The only difference between their Confucian education and my mother's side's socialist indoctrination was that my paternal side has concepts that the male should have more responsibility and take care of the family, which only puts burden on the male and makes it counter sexist realistically. I am much more inclined towards my maternal grandfather's side and would get in arguments with my father when he tells me I should conform to certain male expectations of the society. To me, there is absolutely no difference between a male and female and I often find myself having far more extreme liberal views than most Americans I know as well.

Edited by warhead, 30 June 2008 - 04:57 PM.

[LongMa]

I think out of all the East Asian nations I've been to, Chinese women on the mainland have the most power socially. Korean women have the least, the Japanese are somewhere in the middle. This is from about 10 years of observations. By far Chinese women are "stronger" (especially women in Shanghai) than women in Tokyo in relationships with men. You would rarely see a Japanese woman berating a man on the street, that woman my be hit (I've seen it, but only at night when the men were drinking and in Korea I think it would be nearly impossible, as to make a man lose face like that...would be very bad). I would also say Taiwanese women are more traditional than Mainland Chinese women, but I never spent much time in Taiwan (one trip) and I'm basing this on Taiwanese students I met and befriended in America....a limit sample.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I think out of all the East Asian nations I've been to, Chinese women on the mainland have the most power socially. Korean women have the least, the Japanese are somewhere in the middle.

This isn't that much of a surprise considering mainland China has went through the cultural revolution. Only the poor families where socialist indoctrination failed to reach still holds the male chauvinistic attitude. Also, the fact that the salary of Chinese males aren't enough to support the family alone forces the women to work as well, with money comes power, and Chinese women have more power in this respect. A recent pole shows that the dream of an average Japanese women is to be a housewife while that of an average Chinese women is to become a CEO. What a difference. Taiwan and Hong Kong are different from the mainland however.

[misha]

I think this is very true and visible also in some Traditional Chinese families here. However, in my case, I am lucky enough to be brought up in a liberal way. Where we can choose the decision which we will take but... We cannot rebuke our parents back for they believe that Karma will be back at you through our kids. And because of this decision, some traditional guys that I met before often times leads to nothing. Like they want me to stop working but of course in my case, I can't. Why? Because of our current economy crisis now, I don't want to be a burden to my husband but of course help him to provide our family a better future, unless he is filthy rich to be able to support all of us. But for me, eventhough I am working, that doesn't mean I have to neglect my responsibilities as a wife and a mother. I need to learn how to balance things out.

[Sephodwyrm]

she should also obey her sons after the death of her husband (夫死从子)

The opposite is more true in many traditional and conservative households. The son listens to the matriarch.

Edited by Sephodwyrm, 25 July 2008 - 03:57 PM.

[DaMo]

I have a hard time thinking of any society that is NOT traditionally patriarchal/male-chauvinist. Nor any that have not traditionally pigeonholed men and women into different roles and held them to different standards (e.g. the slut/stud labelling scheme). Recent improvement in genders' social equalityis not because of "western culture" but because of modern culture ... it is a relatively recent development. Furthermore, those attitudes are deeply ingrained and perhaps even instinctive, so it takes conscious effort rather than faith in human nature to overcome them.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

The son has the ritual duty to show deference to the mother as it is a part of the filial piety. But under legal terms, the son inherits the father's possession, not the mother. However, there are also laws which punish the son for being unfilial(which was the worst moral offense), so if the son neglects the mother, he would have broken a serious law.

[Nemomarlin]

I've always believe the harder a man tries to flaunt his manhood, the less secured he is about his manhood.
I don't think China is a very chauvinistic society. Chinese man don't particularly try very hard to show how manly they are. I am not saying Chinese male are not manly, it is just the not like Chauvinsim from other cultures, like African American or Mexican American.

[Yizheng]

I got brought up in a male chauvinistic and conservative family, but my parents got divorced, and I noticed how after my mother ended up on her own with the children, she became a lot more interested in giving rights and power to women.

It seems to me that the idea of equal rights for men and women is a recent development. Women in different societies had better or worse positions at various times and in various spheres of life, but the concept of a universal and general equality in all spheres is recent for all societies, even western ones.

My observation too is that women in China have greater rights and a more liberal attitude from society than Korean and Japanese women, and I would also put this down to the socialist ideology that forced change in values.

In Russia it was the same, and the socialist ideology got women into the workforce and into previously 'male' professions, but traditional expectations are still extremely strong, and I think it is not even so much that Russian men are trying to keep Russian women 'in their proper place' or something, but that Russian women themselves prefer to keep it this way. It creates some new problems for men, because in reality, women have proved more flexible since the collapse of the USSR and often earn more money than men, but would still expect men to pay for everything and play the traditional male role, and this puts added pressure on men.

I always found it interesting too that countries that are outwardly perceived as more male chauvinist than Russia, like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, now also Liberia, have had female presidents or prime ministers, but in Russia this is really not yet realistic.

[LongMa]

I got brought up in a male chauvinistic and conservative family, but my parents got divorced, and I noticed how after my mother ended up on her own with the children, she became a lot more interested in giving rights and power to women.

It seems to me that the idea of equal rights for men and women is a recent development. Women in different societies had better or worse positions at various times and in various spheres of life, but the concept of a universal and general equality in all spheres is recent for all societies, even western ones.

My observation too is that women in China have greater rights and a more liberal attitude from society than Korean and Japanese women, and I would also put this down to the socialist ideology that forced change in values.

In Russia it was the same, and the socialist ideology got women into the workforce and into previously 'male' professions, but traditional expectations are still extremely strong, and I think it is not even so much that Russian men are trying to keep Russian women 'in their proper place' or something, but that Russian women themselves prefer to keep it this way. It creates some new problems for men, because in reality, women have proved more flexible since the collapse of the USSR and often earn more money than men, but would still expect men to pay for everything and play the traditional male role, and this puts added pressure on men.

I always found it interesting too that countries that are outwardly perceived as more male chauvinist than Russia, like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, now also Liberia, have had female presidents or prime ministers, but in Russia this is really not yet realistic.

I agree for the most part. I think in every society that has "liberalized" their way of thinking toward female equality, the problem is they often go to far.

They think that for women to be "equal" under law or treated as valuable equal members of society they must be EQUAL IN EVERYTHING. That means if there are not equal amount of women as CEOs or Politicians, it must be due to male sexism. No one has ever thought to mention that maybe women as a whole don't value being a CEO or Politician as much as men. Maybe women dominate psychology in 2009 in the West not because their is less sexism than in physics, but because women, on a average have more interest in personal relationship than abstract theory. To even suggest men and women think different and it is due to biology in public can easily get you labeled as sexist, but it is something that most people believe anyway.

So it is hard to divide what is "sexist" (discrimination or oppression based on gender) and what is normal male/female variation. Usually we just assume everything is sexist.

I honestly don't believe if there was no sexism for 100 years, you would have 50% female representation in politics in dominant world powers or 50% representation in major business, nor do I think we will have 50% representation of men in some fields.

That is fine to me, but I think the bigger issue is that everyone has a chance to do what they want to do.

In China, due to Confucianism, I think women were not allowed a chance to do what they wanted, a chance to make a choice. The choice was made for them, this is what I find disturbing...if a woman chooses to focus on family more than career or live with her son's family, etc. That's okay.



In those nations you named with women leaders (I will include Argentina in this) were the daughters or wives of a previous leader or very powerful family. The people were not voting for the woman as a 'stand-alone" candidate, but they were voting for her family history and the idea they would be like their father/husband. This is also the kind of campaign Hillary Clinton was running initially, always talking about what her husband did and how things were better when he was in office.

Outside of the EU, Liberia, and Chile, I can't think of a woman leader who was elected independent of her family history.

Getting back to Asia, especially China, I can't imagine a female head of state in any East Asian nation. I tease my wife about when Japan will elect a social/ethnic minority or a woman as Prime Minister, she simply says "impossible". I think it is even less possible in Korea.

Taiwan or China?

I'm not sure, I just can imagine a female head of state in China...

[Yizheng]

I honestly don't believe if there was no sexism for 100 years, you would have 50% female representation in politics in dominant world powers or 50% representation in major business, nor do I think we will have 50% representation of men in some fields.

That is fine to me, but I think the bigger issue is that everyone has a chance to do what they want to do.

In China, due to Confucianism, I think women were not allowed a chance to do what they wanted, a chance to make a choice. The choice was made for them, this is what I find disturbing...if a woman chooses to focus on family more than career or live with her son's family, etc. That's okay.

I agree that even if all sexist barriers/discriminatory laws were completely removed for 100 years there would not be 50% female representation. For whatever reasons, nature or nurture, there are tendencies towards certain interests and occupations in men and women, and we can call it stereotype or whatever, but it is hard to deny its existence. I think the important thing is simply to recognise that there may be general tendencies, but also variations, and some women want to pursue 'male' pursuits, and some men want to pursue 'female' pursuits, and they should have the right to do so.

I don't think it was just confucianist society that deprived women of this choice. I think in the societies of Europe women were for a long time also kept subordinate by religion and law, spiritually subordinate to the male religious authorities, subordinate in the home to the man, and subordinate under law in society. I don't think that is so different to the relationships between people as stated by Confucius, with the wife subordinate to the husband.

Also, in the traditional confucian society, not all women were in the same unequal position, because of the filial piety principle. The sons might be men, but they owe filial respect and obedience to their parents, mother included, and the laws reflected that. There wasn't much notion of female solidarity, I don't think, either, since for the woman moving into her husband's family, the mother in law was often a terror and nightmare.
The filial piety principle went right up to the emperor, who owed this obedience to his mother. that's also why the empress dowager in history could be such a potentially powerful figure, like the case of Cixi in late Qing, who used her status and right to filial respect to keep power in her hands for almost 50 years.

I don't see China, Japan or Korea electing a female president or prime minister any time yet, and not Russia either. There are women politicians here, but none of them show presidential ambitions. The only one who did try running was Irina Khakamada, who is half-Japanese, incidentally.