66 replies to this topic

[LongMa]

I posted this in the "Be Honest" thread but I thought it was worthy of its own topic. So here it is:

It reminds me of those angry Asian American guys with no girlfriends who blame their imposed celibacy on the fact "racist whites" don't put them in another action movies in potential sex situations with white women...

I actually sympathize with some of the things these guys say, it is not all wrong, but often they are way over the top. I keep thinking when I hear them crying that "pain is relevant" but if all my grandfather or even father (as a child) had to worry about in America was this, well I think they would have been very happy and there would likely have not been a "civil rights movement" well not one worth risking your life over.

I believe the website Model Minority is full of those folks...

http://modelminority.com/

For anyone who is interested, if you are a white male don't bother. You will be labeled a racist in 10 seconds and attacked repeatedly. If you are black or Hispanic and don't agree with everything then you will be labeled an Asian-hater, a sellout, or a lapdog for the "white power structure" LOL

IMOP this really comes down to "sex" and status in American society (or Western society) with Asian men feeling they do all the right things (get good jobs on average, do well in school on average) but almost half of Asian women date and marry non-Asian men and other races of women don't seem as interested.

I say there is true in this because of studies like this:
http://scienceblogs...._women.php#more

THe link above is a breakdown on a study on interracial dating in America...it is somewhat skewed from the beginning since it was Columbia University students, definitely not a broad cross section of the United States. :-)

However, it was interesting. If you want to skim the graphs and tables...

A key thing to look at is Table 4, the way to read it is, the lower the number the more a person wants to date someone from that group. So if you look Black women are like -o.89 for black males, meaning race was very important and they very much wanted to date a black male, white women were -.19 for Asian males, meaning the opposite. Anyway if you look at how all other groups of women feel about Asian males they are less likely to want to date them than white, black, or Hispanic males.

What else is interesting is Asian women (only second to black women) were the least racial in their choice of dating partners. That's bad for Asian men as you can see.

For women though the total breakdown in terms of importance was not race (if you believe people are as likely to lie about race and ethnicity at super politically correct Columbia as much as income...i don't think so but I will assume they were telling the truth)

Ethnicity - 0.40
Highest Degree - 0.55
Socioeconomic index - 0.32

Do you notice this trend in your Western coutry in regard to Asians and everyone else?

It seems that, according to the study, men are the least racial when it comes to dating, which is obvious.

Anyone who doubt this look at North and SOuth AMerica. South America is far more racially mixed than NOrth AMerica? Why?

Anglo-Saxon men brought their women, Portuguese and Spaniards did not (well very few). Gets kind of lonely staring at other men and that Indian woman starts looking mighty hot....the slave woman too. :-)


Anyway my theory is degree (education) roughly with socioeconomics so...that seemed to be a big thing...which is not shocking. An ugly man of high status can get a very attractive woman, happens all the time (look at Donald Trump) so I kind of believe status based on education and income mean a lot for women even in 2008...

In Western society white males have historically been the symbol of political and economic power and if you are going to marry outside your ethnic group/race and the person is non-white then you are taking somewhat of a risk...so the "other group male" has to make up for the short fall by having superior status....status can mean different things to different people. IT can mean more money, education, or just better looks...

I think the way Western culture is, especially Anglo Saxon culture, we value a lot of cultural norms that some East Asians may think are "barbaric" such as the "touch guy, bad boy...muscle guy"...

THis puts Asian males at a disadvantage.

The Asian guy might be smart, have a good education, etc. Lets say he makes $60,000 a year. Lets say a less smart and slightly poorer HIspanic or black guy is more "masculine and outgoing" and makes $45-50,000 a year, many women will see the dominent Alpha Male as superior and more "sexy"...as long as he doesn't mistreat her women (ESPECIALLY YOUNG WOMEN) will go for that guy over the guy they think of as a "nerd" or just "weak and passive".

I knew a Korean American guy who played football and as big as me (about 190cm) and more muscular...however most of Asian AMericans I grew up with were CHinese, Vietnamese, and Filipinos...they were shorter and skinnier. Some of the Filipinos had the "bad boy" image, but most were seen as smart, good students, nonathletic, nerdy...some were really into cars and had nice ones...they had fixed up...but for the most part you saw less of them with non-Asian women then you did black or HIspanics.

Many of these Asians and Hispanics are from countries where they were raised by foreign born parents. Hispanics are known to have a very masculine culture, so this can be a benefit from them, but Asian parents raising there kids with values from Asia often conflict with what is cool and sexy in the West for a man. Blacks often have a stereotype (and I am black so…) that they are too masculine or aggressive, but no one thinks they are effeminate or weak…so…

THose are my ideas...

[Kimchee]

Most of my TV viewing is Home and Garden TV, where they go into people's homes and redecorate, or help young couples find new homes (House Hunters) etc, etc... and I have to tell you... more and more I see mixed marriages with Asian men and Caucasian women... with kids, nice homes, very positive portrayals. You might not see this much in the movies or fictional TV shows, but it seems to be more prevalent in "real" life.

And also, one of my favorite programs on The Learning Channel is Jon and Kate Plus 8... yes, reality TV, but I love this show. Jon is of Korean descent and Kate is your typical American blonde... of course, the whole reason why they're on TV is because at first they had a set of twins... and a couple of years later, when they wanted to have ONE more baby... they had 6 at once!! All I can say is... her poor belly!

But, it seems viewers are totally enamored with this family, as am I! And I haven't heard anything negative about them. My question... are American perceptions finally changing towards Asian men?

Kimchee

Edited by Kimchee, 21 July 2008 - 11:30 AM.

[Lu Su]

Despite what many people may believe, America and American people in general are highly tolerant and accepting of mixed marriages. It fact, it is less likely anyone will take any special notice or offense to seeing one, and people like myself wont even show any sign of taking notice to it, but see it as normal as any same race couple.

The only reason at all there is hatred or blind aggression by certain factions is because of promoted seperatist interests and selfishness. Somewhere down the line someone could have been very naughty instigating a general blind agression, but also maybe not. Point is though, I assure you selfishness was involved at some point. It has always been the cause. I do wish people would adapt the very simple and logical view that we are all humans living on one planet. I wonder if alien life exists, and if so, what do they think of our actions? I am willing to bet if they have already gotten past our worlds current immaturity they are likely looking at Earth saying 'Wow... All these people are of one force that animates them and yet they constantly kill each other over the pettiest reasons, those in power involve high numbers of innocent deaths in their inevitable rampage of destruction, and thus spreads that ridiculous mindset to others and causing the ripples of ignorance and suffering to perpetually cascade throughout their civilization. Why do they not focus on their truly pressing issues and challenges to overcome that afflicts all of them as one people?'

Perhaps we are only savages yet after all, and there is much we can do better, and in turn do away with stereotypes and blind judgement that unfortunately brings a need to have the most basic of civil liberties fought for when they simply should be given.

[fcharton]

Hi Longma,

I don't know about the US, but here in France, the situation has changed a lot, from the generation of my parents (now in their 70s), who grew up in country where almost everybody was of european descent, to my generation (in my 40s), who grew up in a country where first and second generation migrants (from former french colonies) were common, to that of my children, who grow up is a very multiethnic country. In short, interracial dating used to be frowned upon in my parents' time, was tolerated in mine, and seems quite accepted these days.

However, in the specific case of asian and european families, I have noticed one difference which might explain the dating imbalance: the prejudice against intermarriage seems to run in opposite directions.

For most families of european descent, parents seem to accept better their sons marrying a foreign girl, than their daughters marrying of foreign man. I am not quite sure of the reason, but I have seen this happen a lot around me. On the other hand, many families of asian descent would rather accept of foreign husband for their daughter than a foreign wife for their son. In this case, I believe it is linked to the way asian cultures see their lineages. I was often surprised to see such attitudes prevail even in very europeanised families of asian descent.

Now, this certainly does not explain everything, but those two positions tend to fuel the current imbalance in interracial couples.

Still, the situation is changing fast, and I suspect that nowadays, the main barriers to dating have more to do with social differences and integration than with race. Basically, new migrants, especially some of the most recently arrived asian migrants, tend to live in more closed societies than before, and such groups tend to be very endogamic. But judging on my children and their friends, the coming generation is quite colour blind when it comes to dating... (this of course being true in big cities like paris, probably less so in the countryside...)

Francois

[Lu Su]

Those are excellent observations, fcharton.

[LongMa]

Despite what many people may believe, America and American people in general are highly tolerant and accepting of mixed marriages. It fact, it is less likely anyone will take any special notice or offense to seeing one, and people like myself wont even show any sign of taking notice to it, but see it as normal as any same race couple.

That is only true depending on where you live.

It also depends on who it is.

I got stared at from time to time by Koreans when I"m with my wife.

When I had a white girlfriend (who was Russian) we would get stared at a lot in the Southern part of Virginia by both black and white people, I noticed that the same people would not stare when I went there with my wife (who is Japanese) so that tells me the race issue was between blacks and whites.

We get stared at more in Houston, Texas, than in Washington, D.C. or New York that is for sure.

The country is not uniformly diverse and open minded, it depends on the location, America is quite large. Trust me that you will get stared at in a lot of the Southeast outside of major cities and in places like West Virginia or even rural Pennsylvania or Ohio. Staring does not mean racial animous though...

I would say Americans are more open to most countries in the world but a lot of that has to do with the fact it is so diverse and people see this often (in some places) and there is no major conflict over economics or land between racial/ethnic groups that causes such competition as to really divide society.

I'm pretty sure a Greek Cypriot would not be walking around with his Turkish Girlfriend on the Turkish side of the island...a Jew in Israel will not be walking around Palestinian territory with his Muslim or even Arab Christian girlfriend...

In China, a Japanese man with a Chinese girlfriend in certain areas can cause him to be berated in public (I have seen it in Shanghai with my own eyes).

Edited by LongMa, 21 July 2008 - 12:58 PM.

[LongMa]

Hi Longma,

I don't know about the US, but here in France, the situation has changed a lot, from the generation of my parents (now in their 70s), who grew up in country where almost everybody was of european descent, to my generation (in my 40s), who grew up in a country where first and second generation migrants (from former french colonies) were common, to that of my children, who grow up is a very multiethnic country. In short, interracial dating used to be frowned upon in my parents' time, was tolerated in mine, and seems quite accepted these days.

However, in the specific case of asian and European families, I have noticed one difference which might explain the dating imbalance: the prejudice against intermarriage seems to run in opposite directions.

For most families of european descent, parents seem to accept better their sons marrying a foreign girl, than their daughters marrying of foreign man. I am not quite sure of the reason, but I have seen this happen a lot around me. On the other hand, many families of asian descent would rather accept of foreign husband for their daughter than a foreign wife for their son. In this case, I believe it is linked to the way asian cultures see their lineages. I was often surprised to see such attitudes prevail even in very europeanised families of asian descent.

Now, this certainly does not explain everything, but those two positions tend to fuel the current imbalance in interracial couples.

Still, the situation is changing fast, and I suspect that nowadays, the main barriers to dating have more to do with social differences and integration than with race. Basically, new migrants, especially some of the most recently arrived asian migrants, tend to live in more closed societies than before, and such groups tend to be very endogamic. But judging on my children and their friends, the coming generation is quite colour blind when it comes to dating... (this of course being true in big cities like paris, probably less so in the countryside...)

Francois

I think I see the same in America...but it is not all equal between groups, as the study above shows.

Although race is not the biggest factors all races are not equal in the desirability.

I would also agree that many families take more issue with their daughter "marrying or dating out" than their son.

I think there are a lot of reasons for that, but one is that men are generally seen as a threat...if you read history men from some other faction would often kill off all the males of a group and marry, rape, enslave, etc the women (and children) of the other group and often integrate them and accept any resulting children as part of the invaders group.

Men are not generally threatened by women but they are threatened by other men.

Also a woman's father, especially a white woman, might worry that her marrying a non-white man will drop her social status or hurt her in life...although they don't tend to have negative feelings toward the minority group they know there is some discrimination and don't want their daughter to deal with it.

They worry less about their sons, because in society it is just more excepted by the majority group for a man to have a woman from the minority group. A white male from the dominent society is still a white male...it doesn't matter who he marries for the most part, he can still be a bread winner and face minimum issue over a wife...people take a different point of view with a white woman married "out".

I know men in America who have told me (this was in the rural South) they felt they were discriminated against because their wife was white by their white boss...but the boss did not care when he thought their wife was their own race. If this man does not get promoted due to this (which he can not prove) and lives in an area with few better job opprotunities than this hurts his family (white wife) as well.


Specifically with Asians...I think it is not just Asian men not being able to marry out at the same rate but the fact that Asian women marry out at a much higher rate. The study shows that Asian women don't have as much of an issue dating or marrying out as other races of women so they are likely to date whoever which increases the chance they won't marry an Asian man.

So the Asian man is often left with fewer dating choices. This is what many Asian American "Asian power" types online (like Modelminority.com) complain about constantly....

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Interesting thread about race and sexual relations. Let's see what this (strangely blue-eyed yet seductive) Japanese Nazi-lady Kozakura van Spankenhaus has to say about all of this:

Nein! There will be no race mixing! Now bend over for your exam, untermensch!

Just kidding.

But seriously, Asian American men who were born elsewhere or have parents who were immigrants will have the hardest time acquiring a white/hispanic/black woman that they will find acceptable, and even more, a white/hispanic/black woman who will find them culturally acceptable. Asian American men who have a long family history in the U.S. will have less of a problem, since their families have been heavily entrenched in the American world and have 100% adopted the American attitude and way of looking at things (i.e., no problem with the dumb tough guy thing).

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about. I often see Asian guys with white girls on my campus at GMU, and to a lesser extent Asian guys with black or hispanic girls.

More often than not, though, people tend to date within their own racial community. Otherwise, you'd see entire racial communities simply disappear over a generation, which isn't realistic. Take for instance, if (hypothetically speaking) the entire black community in America, some 40 million people making up 13% of the population, decided "I'm going to marry someone of a different race today!" Lol. Then in one fail swoop (i.e. one generation of marrying nothing but white/hispanic/asian women or men), there would be no more black people at all! Well, that is if you don't count interracial people as being "black", and the fact that many American blacks have a White slave owner in their family tree (that's disturbing ).

That brings to mind another thing, what to make of Barack Obama? Since he had a Kenyan immigrant and White background rather than slave roots in the Old South, many blacks at first did not even consider him to be an African American.

Wow, I have spun this way off-topic.

Eric (En Rui)

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Men are not generally threatened by women but they are threatened by other men.

So true.

[Thaibebop]

Interesting thread about race and sexual relations. Let's see what this (strangely blue-eyed yet seductive) Japanese Nazi-lady Kozakura van Spankenhaus has to say about all of this:







Just kidding.

But seriously, Asian American men who were born elsewhere or have parents who were immigrants will have the hardest time acquiring a white/hispanic/black woman that they will find acceptable, and even more, a white/hispanic/black woman who will find them culturally acceptable. Asian American men who have a long family history in the U.S. will have less of a problem, since their families have been heavily entrenched in the American world and have 100% adopted the American attitude and way of looking at things (i.e., no problem with the dumb tough guy thing).

Honestly I don't see what all the fuss is about. I often see Asian guys with white girls on my campus at GMU, and to a lesser extent Asian guys with black or hispanic girls.

More often than not, though, people tend to date within their own racial community. Otherwise, you'd see entire racial communities simply disappear over a generation, which isn't realistic. Take for instance, if (hypothetically speaking) the entire black community in America, some 40 million people making up 13% of the population, decided "I'm going to marry someone of a different race today!" Lol. Then in one fail swoop (i.e. one generation of marrying nothing but white/hispanic/asian women or men), there would be no more black people at all! Well, that is if you don't count interracial people as being "black", and the fact that many American blacks have a White slave owner in their family tree (that's disturbing ).

That brings to mind another thing, what to make of Barack Obama? Since he had a Kenyan immigrant and White background rather than slave roots in the Old South, many blacks at first did not even consider him to be an African American.

Wow, I have spun this way off-topic.

Eric (En Rui)

Sorry, a little off topic, but what is the obsession with Nazis that Asians have? Where does it come from and why of all groups in time them?

[fcharton]

Also a woman's father, especially a white woman, might worry that her marrying a non-white man will drop her social status or hurt her in life...although they don't tend to have negative feelings toward the minority group they know there is some discrimination and don't want their daughter to deal with it.

I would partly disagree with this interpretation, for three reasons.

First, because marrying a foreigner does not necessarily mean getting a lower social status, or having one's husband discriminated. I think you'd observe the same reluctance to let one's daughter go to a rich foreigner (I can think of at least one example involving an american, and another involving a german, not poor people at all, and not even of different races).
Second, because if it were the case, you'd mechanically see it happen less in poorer families than in richer families. I believe it is quite the reverse.
Finally, you would then need to explain why this seems to happen consistently in the west, but not in asia...

My hunch is that this could be linked to the idea that marrying a foreigner (one from a different town, country, or race...) means leaving for good. I have the impression that in western societies, boys were expected to leave the family, and go seek fortune, sometimes far away, whereas girls tend to remain closer to their parents, eventually caring after them. For instance, an unmarried son would become a soldier, or a priest, and leave the family, whereas an unmarried daughter would stay at home. In the long run, parents would expect daughters to remain around. In asian societies, I believe it always went the other way round, girls would leave, and boys would stay.

As such, for many western parents, having one's daughter marrying a foreigner would mean either she would leave with him, or that they'd leave close to the foreigner. And there, common xenophobia probably sets in : you'd rather be close to one of your own.

Francois

Edited by fcharton, 21 July 2008 - 01:42 PM.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I would also agree that many families take more issue with their daughter "marrying or dating out" than their son.

I think there are a lot of reasons for that, but one is that men are generally seen as a threat...if you read history men from some other faction would often kill off all the males of a group and marry, rape, enslave, etc the women (and children) of the other group and often integrate them and accept any resulting children as part of the invaders group.

I think your observations are somewhat tained by Eurocentric history. In Chinese history, marrying an imperial daughter to barbarians is a perfectly intelligent strategy, and was often applied, but marrying a son to a barbarian is blasphemes. This is the reason why in 698, when Mocho Khaghan asked to marry a Tang prince instead of a princess, the Wu Zhou court was hesitant to consent and considered something like this to be unprecedented.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Sorry, a little off topic, but what is the obsession with Nazis that Asians have? Where does it come from and why of all groups in time them?

Some do it for the cool boots and hats?

This is a topic for another thread on another day, my friend. Sorry Long Ma! I have derailed your actually interesting thread for a bit (Italio-Brooklyn/Robert De Niro accent: just a little bit). I hope the textual substance of my earlier post will balance this out.

Eric (En Rui)

[LongMa]

I would partly disagree with this interpretation, for three reasons.

First, because marrying a foreigner does not necessarily mean getting a lower social status, or having one's husband discriminated. I think you'd observe the same reluctance to let one's daughter go to a rich foreigner (I can think of at least one example involving an american, and another involving a german, not poor people at all, and not even of different races).
Second, because if it were the case, you'd mechanically see it happen less in poorer families than in richer families. I believe it is quite the reverse.
Finally, you would then need to explain why this seems to happen consistently in the west, but not in asia...

My hunch is that this could be linked to the idea that marrying a foreigner (one from a different town, country, or race...) means leaving for good. I have the impression that in western societies, boys were expected to leave the family, and go seek fortune, sometimes far away, whereas girls tend to remain closer to their parents, eventually caring after them. For instance, an unmarried son would become a soldier, or a priest, and leave the family, whereas an unmarried daughter would stay at home. In the long run, parents would expect daughters to remain around. In asian societies, I believe it always went the other way round, girls would leave, and boys would stay.

As such, for many western parents, having one's daughter marrying a foreigner would mean either she would leave with him, or that they'd leave close to the foreigner. And there, common xenophobia probably sets in : you'd rather be close to one of your own.

Francois

This maybe true in France and this shows a difference in cultural attitudes inside "the West".

I'm not speaking about marrying a foreigner. I'm speaking of marrying a citizen of another race who will stay inside the country and/or community.

There are communities in America that are more racist than others, so in Kentucky...a rich Saudi can marry a local girl and he may be educated but it would drop her social status because he is an Arab and a Muslim and many local whites would automatically look down on such a person for religious and racial/ethnic reasons. THe fact he is foreign and rich might even bring more animosity from local men who think she should have "stayed with her own and was a prostitute who married for money"...I can speak to experience that there are also black people in America (my late grandfather) who due to our past history hate white people and my grandfather would not let white people in his house but for business and I'm pretty sure if I brought a white woman home and said this is my "fiancee" he would not have let her in. ONe of his daughters (my mother's sister) married a white man and he refused to see her or his grandchildren for nearly 10 years and then would only see them when the husband was not present. Toward the end of his life he softened, and actually got along well with his white son-in-law, but it took nearly 15 years. THis had nothing to do with social class whatsoever.

Historically in America social-class was intertwined with race, so for a white woman to marry a non-white person (especially a black, but also (depending on location) a Hispanic or Native American) was to marry "down" it didn't matter if the man was a Doctor or lawyer, he was not white. In 2008, I think that the social stigma on a daily basis is far far less and many people are far more liberal, but there are still places in America where this attitude is very present, even if not spoken publically.

THere are areas where a white woman with mixed race children might be treated poorly due to it, despite her income or education level. This is more true in rural areas than cities though, and less true in larger cities than smaller cities.


So when I say "social status" I'm not speaking of social-economic class or Marxist class envy...I'm speaking of positive or negative view of the person and their family in the communit based on the race or religion of their partner.

I didn't say this happened in Asia. I'm speaking specifically about about Western countries, I think these type of things are not biological (as in universal to all or most humans) they are cultural.


I would agree that girls traditionally stay closer to their parents, but in America people tend to be highly mobile, especially educated people who move for job opportunities, this means women. So as I said, I'm not speaking about foreigners, I"m speaking about people of the same nationality who have different race or ethnicity so a white American woman who marries another race of man is likely to move with a white husband as well as with a non-white...that is really not the issue of concern.

Edited by LongMa, 21 July 2008 - 03:43 PM.

[LongMa]

I think your observations are somewhat tained by Eurocentric history. In Chinese history, marrying an imperial daughter to barbarians is a perfectly intelligent strategy, and was often applied, but marrying a son to a barbarian is blasphemes. This is the reason why in 698, when Mocho Khaghan asked to marry a Tang prince instead of a princess, the Wu Zhou court was hesitant to consent and considered something like this to be unprecedented.

I'm not speaking about Asia, so yes I"m being Eurocentric or Westerncentric by default because I"m speaking about cultural norms in the West, specifically in anglo-saxon countries. I would think even 100 years ago in America it would have been easier for a white male (who might be expected to care for his parents in old age) to marry a native american woman, than for his sister to marry a native American man in a place like South Dakota where there was (and many say still is) a lot of prejudice against them.

So American is in no way a Confucianist society...where the boy is prized and it is the oldest son's duty to take care of his parents and guide the family after the father is gone, etc... Forget about contemporary America, life is no longer like that in Japan and in areas of Mainland China...

Edited by LongMa, 21 July 2008 - 03:36 PM.