325 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've been pondering the question: what makes chinese civlization unique and why was it the longest suriving ancient civilization in the world ?

According to most chinese history texts, there are 4 great ancient civilization:

1. Egyptian (based on niles river civilization)
2. Mesopotamia (based on Tigris and Euphrates civilization)
3. Indian (based on Indus Valley civilization)
4. China (based on Yellow River civilization)

However, Egyptian, Mesopotamia and Indian have all disappeared.

The egyptians had been conquered by Greeks, Persians, Arabs and its language and culture had all been destroyed by these invaders such that today's egyptian culture is not egyptian but arab. Mesopotamia (Sumerians, Babylons, Assyrians etc) are the same, they were conquered by Persians and later the Arabs and today's "Mesopotamian" had been displaced by Arabs. The Indians (Indus) were also conquered by Aryans from Caucasia who settled in north and the culture owas Indus was lost.

Only chinese civilization is the longest continuous surviving civilization dating from ancient times, despite the fact that China had been conquered by northern nomads as well as other 'foreign' invaders such as Mongols and Manchus.

After attending a course on chinese history, I've learnt a number of factors that make chinese civilization unique, contributing to its continuity:


1. Geographical Factor

China has great territorial land for developing its own culture and civilization. It was considered 'isolated' from the rest of other civilization b'cos in the west, you have gobi desert in the western region, which prevented other civilization to easily invade China. Also you have tibetan plateau and himalaya which formed the best wall of defence from Indian's or Alexander's invasion. In the east, there is the pacific ocean. Under such geographical conditions and being 'isolated', it was able to develop its own civilization

2. Chinese are agriculture and farming-based

Unlike nomads, chinese are farmers who usually settled down permanently in a land and develop its own production for food or artisan. Because of settlement, an advanced social and political system was necessary to help govern. This accelerated chinese civilization. Because of productivity, the population of chinese also increased rapidly making the civilization strong. They also do not, unlike nomads, who roam about hunting for food or be 'disappeared' in other civilization.

Chinese, unlike the nomads, were not warriors-based, but were farmers-based.


3. Chinese learnt cavalry warfare from nomads to fight against nomads

It has been described that while the chinese were civilized with the nomads being barbarians, the chinese were also like sheep as compared to nomads who are the wolves. Chinese army, being recruited from peasants and farmers, used to be infantry based. This has a clear disadvantage when fighting against mounted warriors of the steppe. To counter this, chinese learnt cavalry from the nomads and used it to fight against nomads.

4. Acculturation and Sinification nature of chinese culture

When nomads such as Xianbei, Mongols, Manchus conquered China, instead of them using the nomads way to rule China, they were forced to use the han-chinese way to rule China. This makes them gradually become sinificized (esp. the Xianbei, Manchus). Remember, the chinese were farmers and to rule China, you cannot use 'warrior' and nomadic way to rule China. Otherwise, the regime will have problems. This accounted for why chinese culture and civilization was not destroyed.

Does anyone have other reasons to explain why China is longest surviving civilization? What accounts for its continuity?

(Any comments and contribution are appreciated)

[GuanYu]

I think your sinification argument explains it perfectly. Chinese culture has constantly evolved over the past millenia, there is no single definition for what Chinese culture really is. It has incorporated, integrated, acculturated, absorbed, and assimilated most of the people around her. In a way, even when China loses (EG being conquered by nomadic invaders), she wins thanks to Sinification.

[Gubook Janggoon]

More Sinification than anything else..simply when people conquer China, they become Chinese.

[Kulong]

More Sinification than anything else..simply when people conquer China, they become Chinese.

And vice versa, though there are some exceptions.

Don't make it seem like Chinese were conquered by foreigners all the time

[hansioux]

Why do people say that the Indian civilization is no longer existing?

From where I see it, it is alive and well.

Their Religion and cast system exist even today.

[Gubook Janggoon]

And vice versa, though there are some exceptions.

Don't make it seem like Chinese were conquered by foreigners all the time 

You're right...but then again since the people who were invading are now Chinese...it was a war between brothers so therefore China was actually never conquered...


What about the Persians, Arabs, and Greeks? I've always felt that they are up there with the first four...

[hansioux]

You're right...but then again since the people who were invading are now Chinese...it was a war between brothers so therefore China was actually never conquered...
What about the Persians, Arabs, and Greeks?  I've always felt that they are up there with the first four...

I suppose this grouping merged Persians and the Arabs into the Meso group.

However, the Aigean civilization, while drew a lot of influences from the Egyptians and the Mesos were still earlier than the Chinese civilization, not to mention among one of the most influencial in present day world.

[Grigori]

Why do people say that the Indian civilization is no longer existing?

From where I see it, it is alive and well.

Their Religion and cast system exist even today.

They're referring to the Indus River Valley Civilization which died out 3,500 yrs ago. The people who built the cities left, no one knows what happened to them and no one can read their language. The Indian people today were immigrants from Iran and Central Asia who probably arrived after the Indus River Valley Civilization had gone. It's possible the Hindu religion may have roots from those Indus River people, but no one really knows.

[wuTao]

They're referring to the Indus River Valley Civilization which died out 3,500 yrs ago. The people who built the cities left, no one knows what happened to them and no one can read their language. The Indian people today were immigrants from Iran and Central Asia who probably arrived after the Indus River Valley Civilization had gone. It's possible the Hindu religion may have roots from those Indus River people, but no one really knows.

Wow, that's really interesting! I thought that the ancient people of the Indus River Valley wrote in Sanskrit. It's amazing to know that there's an ancient undeciphered language that could hold the key to a whole civilization's history!

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know how old current academics believe the Indus River Valley Civilization is? Which cities and great monuments are the ones they've left? I've heard some think it may be older than even the Mesopotamian civilizations...

[Grigori]

Wow, that's really interesting! I thought that the ancient people of the Indus River Valley wrote in Sanskrit. It's amazing to know that there's an ancient undeciphered language that could hold the key to a whole civilization's history! 

Kind of off topic, but does anyone know how old current academics believe the Indus River Valley Civilization is? Which cities and great monuments are the ones they've left? I've heard some think it may be older than even the Mesopotamian civilizations...

Yeah it is very interesting. They were the first to build cities with indoor plumbing, their mudwork was quite intricate. And for a short-lived civilization, their colonies spread over a very large area. Not just the Indus River as previously supposed but all over northern India. Check out how much territory they covered in just a few centuries of history.



Unfortunatly they didn't seem to make a lasting impact much like the Mayans.

For Further Study

[General_Zhaoyun]

Another reason of why chinese remain the longest surviving is that most chinese stayed permanently in a place for a long time, instead of migrating somewhere else, unlike the nomads. This caused the population to remain large, instead of decreasing. As said, they were farmers and farming requires them to stay long as they could.

The chinese also had advanced agriculture to increase food supply to support a large population.

[Tibet Libre]

The Jewish people have a similarly long history, but unlike other people they had to preserve their culture for the very most time WITHOUT a protecting state. Big achievement, if you ask me.

Also, depending on definition of course, Egyptian culture is roughly as old as Chinese: 3000 BC to 500 CE, if we take the usage of hieroglyphs and demotic into account: 3500 years.

About cultural continuity:
Last year, I was in Egypt. I was surprised to hear that people were actually refering to themselves as "Egypts, not Arabs".

Also note, that Egyptian Coptes (10% of population) are the direct ancestors of the old Egyptians. They were not islamized. In terms of bloodline they probably have more direct and older links to their ancestors than most of the other people, Chinese included.

[snowybeagle]

The Jewish people have a similarly long history, but unlike other people they had to preserve their culture for the very most time WITHOUT a protecting state. Big achievement, if you ask me.

Quite an achievement, but think also of the blood shed throughout the persecutions. Quite ironically, persecutions tend to drive the persecuted towards their core identity rather than losing it.

Think of the many Europeans today whose ancestors until recent the last century before had been Christians.

And also the Chinese christian converts whose forefathers had followed traditional Chinese beliefs.

[Enkidu]

Maybe there are lots and lots of lost knowledge in all those thousands of years. It will be great if we can rediscover them.