325 replies to this topic

[stardave]

But you are talking about political terms. A Europe which remains divided politically can still manage to increase the membership of the EU which means there is something there to unite. Much like China. But China is also like Europe in the fact that it's different all over in terms of culture. The differences might not be as pronounced as say a difference between China as a whole and Europe as a whole but taking into account the provincial units one can appreciate the differences between them. It's not difficult to see that Germans are different from French for example and neither is it difficult to see that people from Beijing are different to people in Jilin not because of just the political status but also on the basis of culture.

Let us do an experiment, you take 10 people from the European Union randomly, and 10 people from China randomly, and put them in a room together, and let an African/South Americans/Middle Eastern ask them the question..

You isolate those people, do not let them see each other, and then you lead each one of them into a room by themselves,and you ask each of them, "where are you come from", I bet you 10000000%, they would say, I am from Germany... I am from France.... I am from Italy, they will identify their nation first, they will identify themselves as their NATION first, they will not say oh I am from the European Union.

You then do the same thing to those 10 Chinese, "where are you come from", I bet you they will say all say I am from China... I am from China... I am from China.... if you ask them again where in China, only then they will tell you which city, which Provence they are from.

This is what I am talking about, the Chinese identity of the Chinese people, while I have no doubt, and I don't deny that China is vast, and there can be vastly different sub cultures from different places, but they all have one thing in common, their identity of one nation, and this is something European Union does not and will never have.

[mohistManiac]

Let us do an experiment, you take 10 people from the European Union randomly, and 10 people from China randomly, and put them in a room together, and let an African/South Americans/Middle Eastern ask them the question..

You isolate those people, do not let them see each other, and then you lead each one of them into a room by themselves,and you ask each of them, "where are you come from", I bet you 10000000%, they would say, I am from Germany... I am from France.... I am from Italy, they will identify their nation first, they will identify themselves as their NATION first, they will not say oh I am from the European Union.

You then do the same thing to those 10 Chinese, "where are you come from", I bet you they will say all say I am from China... I am from China... I am from China.... if you ask them again where in China, only then they will tell you which city, which Provence they are from.

This is what I am talking about, the Chinese identity of the Chinese people, while I have no doubt, and I don't deny that China is vast, and there can be vastly different sub cultures from different places, but they all have one thing in common, their identity of one nation, and this is something European Union does not and will never have.

That's because China is only beginning to be in the limelight. Nobody will really care if you say you are from Hunan but yet that is the province where Mao came from. They brighten up if you say you are from Beijing Shanghai or some other major city but for the most part the person will probably say China. However the Chinese will never tell themselves they are from China. Obviously the idea is to tell which province you are from. The opposite seems to be true for Europeans. Nobody cares if an American of European decent says I am European because that's simply not specific enough. It has been in the limelight long enough for people to say it is not enough for me to simply know you are European. Besides the fact they are separate nations there are also cultural considerations.

Edited by mohistManiac, 21 June 2012 - 01:54 AM.

[stardave]

That's because China is only beginning to be in the limelight. Nobody will really care if you say you are from Hunan but yet that is the province where Mao came from. They brighten up if you say you are from Beijing Shanghai or some other major city but for the most part the person will probably say China. However the Chinese will never tell themselves they are from China. Obviously the idea is to tell which province you are from. The opposite seems to be true for Europeans. Nobody cares if an American of European decent says I am European because that's simply not specific enough. It has been in the limelight long enough for people to say it is not enough for me to simply know you are European. Besides the fact they are separate nations there are also cultural considerations.

Well DUH, if you are Chinese and if you go to China and ask people where are you from, It will be stupid for them to say, I am from China. The same thing goes if you are ask a white people in California, where are you from, they won't say I am from America will they?

Again, I don't understand why are you so keen to dismiss the cohesion of the Chinese identity, I know you want to emphasis that there are different sub cultures in China, that each places may speak different dialog of Chinese or different costumes, but the fact is everyone in China still consider themselves as part of one political entity, aka China on the world stage.

While this is no means to say by admitting you are Chinese means you do not respect the local customer of Hunana province etc... Why can't the person be Chinese and be Beijinger or Shanghainess at the same time? Is there some kind of shame in your mind that being a "Chinese" is bad or inferior or something?

[mohistManiac]

Well DUH, if you are Chinese and if you go to China and ask people where are you from, It will be stupid for them to say, I am from China. The same thing goes if you are ask a white people in California, where are you from, they won't say I am from America will they?

Again, I don't understand why are you so keen to dismiss the cohesion of the Chinese identity, I know you want to emphasis that there are different sub cultures in China, that each places may speak different dialog of Chinese or different costumes, but the fact is everyone in China still consider themselves as part of one political entity, aka China on the world stage.

While this is no means to say by admitting you are Chinese means you do not respect the local customer of Hunana province etc... Why can't the person be Chinese and be Beijinger or Shanghainess at the same time? Is there some kind of shame in your mind that being a "Chinese" is bad or inferior or something?

It's not stupid if you're looking at the diaspora. If you just arrived in the US with a bunch of other Chinese folks and you start a conversation it would be permitted for someone to say I am from China while someone says I am from Taiwan or Singapore. But the idea is to get more specific and the China answer is mostly accompanied with the name of a province and possibly the whereabouts within the province. The time when most people from China give only the answer of China is when they encounter those outside the diaspora because it would certainly be too much to expect of others to have learned all the localities in China. However such tact is not demonstrated when speaking of the European diaspora. Europeans will not say I am from Europe for the sake of convenience because everyone already knows the locales by name, France Germany Italy Spain etc. Given enough time the Chinese would not resort to such tact either. They would be comfortable in saying I am from Fujian or Guizhou and expect other people to have known it already the way they know Shanghai or Hong Kong.

I'm not sure what brought that on. China on the world stage? Isn't that speaking a little too soon? Why not use a better magnifying glass and take a look at what is inside China for its variety, then we can talk about China on the world stage.

Of course people can be Chinese that is what people in China are, Chinese. But they don't fool themselves about being the same like being from Beijing and Shanghai at the same time. The person might have traveled around and gotten to know the places but that is really different than what a person means when they say most of my family is from Shanghai and around the area or most of my family are native Sichuan folks.

Edited by mohistManiac, 21 June 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[stardave]

It's not stupid if you're looking at the diaspora. If you just arrived in the US with a bunch of other Chinese folks and you start a conversation it would be permitted for someone to say I am from China while someone says I am from Taiwan or Singapore. But the idea is to get more specific and the China answer is mostly accompanied with the name of a province and possibly the whereabouts within the province. The time when most people from China give only the answer of China is when they encounter those outside the diaspora because it would certainly be too much to expect of others to have learned all the localities in China. However such tact is not demonstrated when speaking of the European diaspora. Europeans will not say I am from Europe for the sake of convenience because everyone already knows the locales by name, France Germany Italy Spain etc. Given enough time the Chinese would not resort to such tact either. They would be comfortable in saying I am from Fujian or Guizhou and expect other people to have known it already the way they know Shanghai or Hong Kong.

I'm not sure what brought that on. China on the world stage? Isn't that speaking a little too soon? Why not use a better magnifying glass and take a look at what is inside China for its variety, then we can talk about China on the world stage.

Of course people can be Chinese that is what people in China are, Chinese. But they don't fool themselves about being the same like being from Beijing and Shanghai at the same time. The person might have traveled around and gotten to know the places but that is really different than what a person means when they say most of my family is from Shanghai and around the area or most of my family are native Sichuan folks.

So you agree, there is obvious a large Chinese identity that all Chinese consider themselves as part of the Chinese civilization and the Chinese nation, and the same cannot be said for EU. This EU financial crisis is the prefect example of that, you may integrate economically but if you don't integrate politically it is a stupid thing to do. While nations like Greece and Spain can have their own financial policy that can recklessness borrow and spend and get deeper in debt, while the nations such as Germany and France cannot do anything to control it.

The same cannot be said for China, the local province government can't do what Greece do. Boxili did something similar to his province and look what happen to him?

Again I don't know what is your agenda, why are you trying to emphasis the difference within the Chinese people, while all I am saying there, YES people from Hainan and Shanghai are different, but they all view themselves as one nation, they all see themselves as Chinese. And if you are Chinese, does not you cannot be Shanghainess etc...

The two are not mutually exclusive, the two concept are not in conflict with each other, while different people from all over China can identify their difference, but in the end, what unites them is deeper than what divides them. Chinese people in China will certainly have more awareness of differentiation of each other, but Chinese people oversee will generally have a much more strong view of their identity as Chinese first, than their province second. The same cannot be said for Europeans. A German in Mexico will have an identity of being a German first, and part of the European Union second. Also people living in France will have less tie with people living in other part of the European Union, says Poland. They will not see Poland as part of one entity as them. people in Shanghai will see people in Beijing much more closer as one people than French sees Polish people. Again, this is something that is unique for China when you compare it to EU.

Oh and no it is not too soon to see Chinese on the international stage, there are already over 50 million oversee Chinese that dose not live in side China... 50 million people is larger than some of the biggest nation on earth already, this is a very significant, and it will only expect to get larger.

Do you find there is something wrong with what I am trying to say?

Edited by stardave, 21 June 2012 - 05:18 PM.

[wangjian]

It's interesting to see this topic in an English forum and it looks like it's an 7 year old topic.

I think the points you concluded might contribute, but not the main reason. I think there is one main reason: Chinese culture is very different to any other cultures. Most culture in the world believes that the strength is high, above and superior to anything. However, the Chinese culture actually believe that the strength is down, soft and humble. Like in Taoism, we believe the power which rules the world is something very alike nothing but exists everywhere. I think this kind of philosophy actually helped Chinese civilization through a lot of hardships.

Many people in this thread mentioned that Chinese civilization actually had assimilated others overran China. In my opinion, it's like throw things into water and the water will embace those things. It's less "against mode", more "absorb mode".

[mohistManiac]

For most of history most Chinese do not even like each other and they know they are separate. Why do you think there was/is a great wall of China in the north and the south? Why do you think commanderies were set up for? Why do you think there was a separate silk road system that had nothing to do with a maritime silk road system which had nothing to do with the canal routes and river routes and mountain routes? Why do you think the Mongols cannot defeat the Japanese? Chinese are made to stick together under the political leadership of a super strong party. The guy above me talks about European Union not being the same as China. Of course it doesn't have control over the amounts other constituent members can borrow because it doesn't have the leverage to prevent others from doing what it previously thought was alright to do. You can't turn a far reaching problem like economics and turn it into a strawman and blame politics for everything. China can control politically and can deny or grant priviledge according to whim depending how it is able to increase control over the population, doesn't mean China is about everything being the same. If European Union cannot take care of itself via a strong political unity why seek to look at China as though Chinese are entirely one solid mobilized unit with absolutely no differences? Why lower your intelligence scheme of filter recognition just because Europe fails to see how it can be politically strong?

[haojie_yu]

I've been pondering the question: what makes chinese civlization unique and why was it the longest suriving ancient civilization in the world ?

According to most chinese history texts, there are 4 great ancient civilization:

1. Egyptian (based on niles river civilization)
2. Mesopotamia (based on Tigris and Euphrates civilization)
3. Indian (based on Indus Valley civilization)
4. China (based on Yellow River civilization)

However, Egyptian, Mesopotamia and Indian have all disappeared.

The egyptians had been conquered by Greeks, Persians, Arabs and its language and culture had all been destroyed by these invaders such that today's egyptian culture is not egyptian but arab. Mesopotamia (Sumerians, Babylons, Assyrians etc) are the same, they were conquered by Persians and later the Arabs and today's "Mesopotamian" had been displaced by Arabs. The Indians (Indus) were also conquered by Aryans from Caucasia who settled in north and the culture owas Indus was lost.

Only chinese civilization is the longest continuous surviving civilization dating from ancient times, despite the fact that China had been conquered by northern nomads as well as other 'foreign' invaders such as Mongols and Manchus.

After attending a course on chinese history, I've learnt a number of factors that make chinese civilization unique, contributing to its continuity:


1. Geographical Factor

China has great territorial land for developing its own culture and civilization. It was considered 'isolated' from the rest of other civilization b'cos in the west, you have gobi desert in the western region, which prevented other civilization to easily invade China. Also you have tibetan plateau and himalaya which formed the best wall of defence from Indian's or Alexander's invasion. In the east, there is the pacific ocean. Under such geographical conditions and being 'isolated', it was able to develop its own civilization

2. Chinese are agriculture and farming-based

Unlike nomads, chinese are farmers who usually settled down permanently in a land and develop its own production for food or artisan. Because of settlement, an advanced social and political system was necessary to help govern. This accelerated chinese civilization. Because of productivity, the population of chinese also increased rapidly making the civilization strong. They also do not, unlike nomads, who roam about hunting for food or be 'disappeared' in other civilization.

Chinese, unlike the nomads, were not warriors-based, but were farmers-based.


3. Chinese learnt cavalry warfare from nomads to fight against nomads

It has been described that while the chinese were civilized with the nomads being barbarians, the chinese were also like sheep as compared to nomads who are the wolves. Chinese army, being recruited from peasants and farmers, used to be infantry based. This has a clear disadvantage when fighting against mounted warriors of the steppe. To counter this, chinese learnt cavalry from the nomads and used it to fight against nomads.

4. Acculturation and Sinification nature of chinese culture

When nomads such as Xianbei, Mongols, Manchus conquered China, instead of them using the nomads way to rule China, they were forced to use the han-chinese way to rule China. This makes them gradually become sinificized (esp. the Xianbei, Manchus). Remember, the chinese were farmers and to rule China, you cannot use 'warrior' and nomadic way to rule China. Otherwise, the regime will have problems. This accounted for why chinese culture and civilization was not destroyed.

Does anyone have other reasons to explain why China is longest surviving civilization? What accounts for its continuity?

(Any comments and contribution are appreciated)

two question:

Chinese are agriculture and farming-based, so this is why Chinese can surviving so long? how about other civilization? they are all nomads?

Chinese learnt cavalry warfare from nomads to fight against nomads? Could I think that you are may thought the cold weapon is better than gun?

[stardave]

For most of history most Chinese do not even like each other and they know they are separate. Why do you think there was/is a great wall of China in the north and the south? Why do you think commanderies were set up for? Why do you think there was a separate silk road system that had nothing to do with a maritime silk road system which had nothing to do with the canal routes and river routes and mountain routes? Why do you think the Mongols cannot defeat the Japanese? Chinese are made to stick together under the political leadership of a super strong party. The guy above me talks about European Union not being the same as China. Of course it doesn't have control over the amounts other constituent members can borrow because it doesn't have the leverage to prevent others from doing what it previously thought was alright to do. You can't turn a far reaching problem like economics and turn it into a strawman and blame politics for everything. China can control politically and can deny or grant priviledge according to whim depending how it is able to increase control over the population, doesn't mean China is about everything being the same. If European Union cannot take care of itself via a strong political unity why seek to look at China as though Chinese are entirely one solid mobilized unit with absolutely no differences? Why lower your intelligence scheme of filter recognition just because Europe fails to see how it can be politically strong?

You are a pathetic man, I don't know what your agenda is, or why do you want to make the Chinese seems as if they are all different from each other, that they about about to break apart any second.

I don't know why you think that for their thousands of years of history until today, the government is there to **** on people, to force them together, that somehow if the government is not here, all of sudden every single Chinese will start killing each other and act as animals, and want to be as different from each other possible. When you reading this, do you feel pleasure in your mind?

Maybe you have been suffered from the Chinese government, that is why you are so butt-hurt seeing China as one nation today, maybe that is why you can to distort the history as much as possible to fit your agenda that China is not united, or that they are as different as different European nations from each other without any shard of evidence whatsoever.

Guess what? History have proven you wrong over and over again, most of the time China was unify under one political entity and it has brought untold of benefit to it is people. But yeah, for you, let us to pick on the time when China was at war, let us point the chaotic period and use this as example of all of China, or better yet, let us look at any other people in history that are not united and say they are the exact same as Chinese, just because it fits your agenda.

You are a sad sad man trying to use nonsense history to satisfy your personal hatred. You know what? Keep hating, because you are going to be very disappointed until the day you die, and knowing that will bring me enjoyment as well.

[mohistManiac]

You are a pathetic man, I don't know what your agenda is, or why do you want to make the Chinese seems as if they are all different from each other, that they about about to break apart any second.

I don't know why you think that for their thousands of years of history until today, the government is there to **** on people, to force them together, that somehow if the government is not here, all of sudden every single Chinese will start killing each other and act as animals, and want to be as different from each other possible. When you reading this, do you feel pleasure in your mind?

Maybe you have been suffered from the Chinese government, that is why you are so butt-hurt seeing China as one nation today, maybe that is why you can to distort the history as much as possible to fit your agenda that China is not united, or that they are as different as different European nations from each other without any shard of evidence whatsoever.

Guess what? History have proven you wrong over and over again, most of the time China was unify under one political entity and it has brought untold of benefit to it is people. But yeah, for you, let us to pick on the time when China was at war, let us point the chaotic period and use this as example of all of China, or better yet, let us look at any other people in history that are not united and say they are the exact same as Chinese, just because it fits your agenda.

You are a sad sad man trying to use nonsense history to satisfy your personal hatred. You know what? Keep hating, because you are going to be very disappointed until the day you die, and knowing that will bring me enjoyment as well.

I never said any of those things you said. You are misguiding everything that was said into a different context. There was nothing wrong nor politically motivated in what I said. In fact I had just begun to turn the issue of unity and solidarity around back to the EU which sought to do a unification of sorts under a Euro currency but was really irrelevant if you want to show how different the areas of Europe are. In history many Chinese are different from one another and had not even shared a common spoken form of language. This kind of thing does parallel Europe in many ways and yet strictly speaking China is not Europe. But this is history and I made no mistake of identifying it as anything other than Chinese if it indeed happened in China. So I really don't know what you are ranting on about?

Edited by mohistManiac, 07 October 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[f0ma]

You are a pathetic man, I don't know what your agenda is, or why do you want to make the Chinese seems as if they are all different from each other, that they about about to break apart any second.

I don't know why you think that for their thousands of years of history until today, the government is there to **** on people, to force them together, that somehow if the government is not here, all of sudden every single Chinese will start killing each other and act as animals, and want to be as different from each other possible. When you reading this, do you feel pleasure in your mind?

Maybe you have been suffered from the Chinese government, that is why you are so butt-hurt seeing China as one nation today, maybe that is why you can to distort the history as much as possible to fit your agenda that China is not united, or that they are as different as different European nations from each other without any shard of evidence whatsoever.

Guess what? History have proven you wrong over and over again, most of the time China was unify under one political entity and it has brought untold of benefit to it is people. But yeah, for you, let us to pick on the time when China was at war, let us point the chaotic period and use this as example of all of China, or better yet, let us look at any other people in history that are not united and say they are the exact same as Chinese, just because it fits your agenda.

You are a sad sad man trying to use nonsense history to satisfy your personal hatred. You know what? Keep hating, because you are going to be very disappointed until the day you die, and knowing that will bring me enjoyment as well.

Stardave, you get a verbal warning for ad hominem. Debate the point NOT the person.

[stardave]

Debate only works when one side is willing to open his mind to accept what the other side are trying to say, go back a few posts and see what he is saying, he is keep saying that China is not unified, China is and has always been hold together by a repressive government, Chinese hate each other throughout history.

When I point out that China still had the most unified political entity throughout history, then he uses the most absurd example of European, Egyptian to say they are the same as China, even trying to use the most pathetic excuse of European's weakest connection trying to prove his point that everyone else is united, and China was not.

It is clearly he have a agenda in his mind, he love to see China in chaos, he love to see the nation break apart. What is there to argue? In his mind there is no such thing as China, everyone hate each other and they can't wait to get rid of the government so they can all be difference and hating one another asap.

[f0ma]

Debate only works when one side is willing to open his mind to accept what the other side are trying to say, go back a few posts and see what he is saying, he is keep saying that China is not unified, China is and has always been hold together by a repressive government, Chinese hate each other throughout history.

When I point out that China still had the most unified political entity throughout history, then he uses the most absurd example of European, Egyptian to say they are the same as China, even trying to use the most pathetic excuse of European's weakest connection trying to prove his point that everyone else is united, and China was not.

It is clearly he have a agenda in his mind, he love to see China in chaos, he love to see the nation break apart. What is there to argue? In his mind there is no such thing as China, everyone hate each other and they can't wait to get rid of the government so they can all be difference and hating one another asap.

From what I can gather, there is an incredible difference between inference and implication here. What you think he is saying and what he is intending to say are two very different things; neither of which permits either of you breaking the forum rules.

[mohistManiac]

Debate only works when one side is willing to open his mind to accept what the other side are trying to say, go back a few posts and see what he is saying, he is keep saying that China is not unified, China is and has always been hold together by a repressive government, Chinese hate each other throughout history.

When I point out that China still had the most unified political entity throughout history, then he uses the most absurd example of European, Egyptian to say they are the same as China, even trying to use the most pathetic excuse of European's weakest connection trying to prove his point that everyone else is united, and China was not.

It is clearly he have a agenda in his mind, he love to see China in chaos, he love to see the nation break apart. What is there to argue? In his mind there is no such thing as China, everyone hate each other and they can't wait to get rid of the government so they can all be difference and hating one another asap.

Lets review what I said exactly. I said for most of history most Chinese don't like each other and I gave the evidences for it. They fought terrible wars for dynastic control many times under the pretext of suppressing a rebellion that is not originating in their own local area. The northern wall delayed many a potential northern Chinese from becoming Chinese! The southern wall also enhanced loss of contact from its associated areas. These were artificial barriers made to distinguish civilized from barbarian. How will you argue against this point? It's just fact.

The other features of China which barricaded people from free access to all areas were the natural landscapes and one can argue for or against depending on how one reads the geography. I would say the routes both connected and differentiated the different historical areas marking them as the main macroeconomic regions of trade. The canal connected north south, the silk road east west, the maritime silk south China with southeast Asia and further west to Persian merchants.

When did I say repressive? I said strong political backing which set them together and ruled in the imperial sense.

You are confused I mention Egypt. Egypt is a cradle of civilization just as China. In that sense they are both similar. But in this we also find the evidences that local areas very close to one another can have very different developments. That is why the Agean was essentially a spin off of Egypt but also had its own developments in the secondary civilization or state formation sense. They are not Egypt. That is to say areas around Egypt won't just be Egypt but are of the western civilizational standard. I think if you don't get it now then you are totally lost on the concept of differentiation.

Edited by mohistManiac, 10 October 2012 - 11:30 AM.

[stardave]

Lets review what I said exactly. I said for most of history most Chinese don't like each other and I gave the evidences for it. They fought terrible wars for dynastic control many times under the pretext of suppressing a rebellion that is not originating in their own local area. The northern wall delayed many a potential northern Chinese from becoming Chinese! The southern wall also enhanced loss of contact from its associated areas. These were artificial barriers made to distinguish civilized from barbarian. How will you argue against this point? It's just fact.

The other features of China which barricaded people from free access to all areas were the natural landscapes and one can argue for or against depending on how one reads the geography. I would say the routes both connected and differentiated the different historical areas marking them as the main macroeconomic regions of trade. The canal connected north south, the silk road east west, the maritime silk south China with southeast Asia and further west to Persian merchants.

When did I say repressive? I said strong political backing which set them together and ruled in the imperial sense.

You are confused I mention Egypt. Egypt is a cradle of civilization just as China. In that sense they are both similar. But in this we also find the evidences that local areas very close to one another can have very different developments. That is why the Agean was essentially a spin off of Egypt but also had its own developments in the secondary civilization or state formation sense. They are not Egypt. That is to say areas around Egypt won't just be Egypt but are of the western civilizational standard. I think if you don't get it now then you are totally lost on the concept of differentiation.

Then i say so AGAIN, China IS THE LONGEST Civilization on the planet Earth, they had the most unified people in history, they had the most unified political entity in history, they had the longest culture in history. If you want to nick pick every single differences you can find about the Chinese people in the past, and say "look here is the example they HATE each other, here is the example they are nothing alike" Then you what? They are still A LOT MORE unified than all other civilization on earth.

You cannot dispute the fact
1. Chinese culture is the longest lasting on earth, and still existing
2. Chinese language is the longest lasting on earth, and still existing
3. China was MORE unified for the longer time politically overall than all over civilization on earth

Everything else you want to point out, how they are different, how much they go to war, how much they hated each other are moot point to the discussion.

Edited by stardave, 13 October 2012 - 10:05 AM.