140 replies to this topic

[One time poster]

I don't know if broad generalizations can be made. It really depends upon the definition of the West. For a very long time Americans prided themselves in being different from their cousins in Europe. And for the longest time cultured Europeans looked down upon Americans as a group of misfits and outcasts whose beliefs are at times outlandish in the general Western European view.

What does anyone think of the ability to negotiate and compromise? Are there general differences between the "East and West"? It seems to me that Westerners are more open to negotiation if you present your case in a logical manner. Maybe that is the result of education where a more objective point of view is emphasized? I'm not sure, but at any rate Greek, Roman and Western European history had been full of times where absolute power is not truly held by any one person or any one state. Even the Romans themselves always had a rival empire to contend with. An empire they never managed to subjugate or turn into a symbolic vassal state. One in which they had to negotiate and deal with because they were close neighbors. Within the Roman empire the Emperor is often seen as being 1st amongst many other powerful men. Power was not as absolute. In medieval Europe the same sort of thing transpired amongst the royalties. The Kings were more often than not simply 1st among equals. He was simply a central figure among many other powerful men. I'm sure that historical development had in some ways affected the shaping of general Western European political structures.

What does everyone else think?

[Western man]

I don't know if broad generalizations can be made. It really depends upon the definition of the West. For a very long time Americans prided themselves in being different from their cousins in Europe. And for the longest time cultured Europeans looked down upon Americans as a group of misfits and outcasts whose beliefs are at times outlandish in the general Western European view.

What does anyone think of the ability to negotiate and compromise? Are there general differences between the "East and West"? It seems to me that Westerners are more open to negotiation if you present your case in a logical manner. Maybe that is the result of education where a more objective point of view is emphasized?

There are first of all historical differences. But even these differences are only the results of a parallel development into the same direction.

Essentially, indigenous Westerners negotiate on a basis of logical thinking because they dare to do so. Others are more emotionalist and avoid hurting others' feelings by destroying their illusions. Part of the reasons for this is that Europeans preserved lots of their warrior spirit and thus they are less likely to shy away from being "too rational" for a community's taste. But Europeans do still have their cultural taboos which make them feel morally superior. In this sense Europeans are no less emotionalist than others. So the negative connotation of the word "emotional" is in fact not logical when viewed in the context of European social taboos.

In my experience (non-religious) Han Chinese men are more rational than average Europeans but Han Chinese females less rational than average Europeans. This pecularity might be preserved in the future as well. Nevertheless, I think that especially Chinese male culture will be totally Westernised one day. Present-day China already has its cultural centre in the north, which is, in my opinion, culturally closer to the West than e.g. the south.

Also, both the West and China are going to have quite old populations in the future. The days in which 20-year-old and younger people are the majority in a country will soon belong to the distant past. So maybe both East and West will be too "senile" and reactionary for more progress in rational thinking or even compromises with outsiders in the future.

[galvatron prime]

Chinese View on crime suspect - you are guily until proved innocent,crime suspect can be beaten .
Western view on crime suspect -you are innocent until proved guilty,crime suspect cannot by beaten ,they have right to sue if get beaten .

Chinese -strike first , question later
Western - question first ,strike later .

Edited by galvatron, 30 March 2007 - 12:08 AM.

[One time poster]

Chinese View on crime suspect - you are guily until proved innocent,crime suspect can be beaten .
Western view on crime suspect -you are innocent until proved guilty,crime suspect cannot by beaten ,they have right to sue if get beaten .

Chinese -strike first , question later
Western - question first ,strike later .

I don't think that was so much a "Westerner" thing. Until relatively recently most "Westerners" also practiced the same view as Chinese did on crime suspects.

I get the feeling that more often than not we assume that "Western" means exclusively American. Americans may be a part of the West, but their ideals and culture does not represent all Western countries.

Edited by One time poster, 30 March 2007 - 05:54 AM.

[nee]

Chinese View on crime suspect - you are guily until proved innocent,crime suspect can be beaten .
Western view on crime suspect -you are innocent until proved guilty,crime suspect cannot by beaten ,they have right to sue if get beaten .

Chinese -strike first , question later
Western - question first ,strike later .

Not really. The social stigma of being labelled as a traitor or unpatriotic in the US generally ignores whether or not the accusation is true.

I think either culture goes both ways in some circumstances. Such has the stereotypical trigger-happy cowboy US soldier in Iraq blowing up cars just in case. "Shoot first, kill second, ask questions later". Yes, a stereotype and likely one amongst a thousand actually think that way seriously, but that doesn't really make the Iraqis feel any better now do they?

Edited by nee, 02 April 2007 - 11:16 AM.

[Publius]

Ridiculous topic. Many cultures across the world 'debase' women. WHat you take as representing all Chinese is really only the ideations of the bookworms. I really hope you have wisened up in the last two years

Many of us "bookworms" have experienced both Western and Chinese cultures and use personal observations for making cultural comparisons, instead of using what we read from a Lonely Planet travel guide. I also believe that most CHF Members and guest readers can differentiate between general observations applying to many people of a given group from absolute statements pertaining to all people.

Accepting that cultures have differences without saying one is better than another is wise, while denying such differences between cultures is really only the ideations of the over-sensitive.

Instead of insulting forummers, just don't read topics that you think are ridiculous and don't like.

[Publius]

Noob,

You misunderstand the purpose of CHF and the consequent demographics of its members. The purpose is to share Chinese history and culture with anyone interested from countries all over the world, including “noobs”, intermediate, and academics. The only criterion is that members have to respectful and courteous to other members. Concerning academics, there is only a handful here at CHF.

Because CHF is a forum where members discuss historical and cultural topics, it is social in nature and provides communicative links to people of various backgrounds, ideas, and are greatly different from each other. This diversity makes CHF an invaluable environment for exchanging ideas.

Unfortunately, because CHF is such a free and open community, CHF attracts some people who enjoy arguments for the sake of arguing. These people, though rare, are called flamebaiters because their remarks are designed to incur retaliation. Flamebaiting is anti-social and disrupts the purpose of CHF: the sharing of cultural and historical ideas. Your last comment was a good example of flamebaiting, while this remark is a good example of a retaliation that has an increased warning attached to it.

I have warned you once, and now again. Consequent flamebaiting remarks, i.e. calling other members foolish, anti-social, etc.., will be deleted and your warning level will be increased further.

Please PM me if you have any questions.

Now, let's get back to the topic at hand:

[General_Zhaoyun]

For the modern chinese culture, it's sometimes a question of balancing between tradition and modernity, with the aim of preserving the goods of the old and keeping up with the progress of the society.

For those who favour modernity, one will tend to look upon 'tradition' as old fashion or conservative. For those who favour 'tradition', one will tend to look upon modernity as 'western materialism culture'.

I think it's good to have this in mind. Even in today's modern China, culture is changing rapidly and developing fast. The old ancient culture that was destroyed during the cultural revolution is now slowly being constructed back, but with new culture developing in China.

[yarovit]

I don't think that was so much a "Westerner" thing. Until relatively recently most "Westerners" also practiced the same view as Chinese did on crime suspects.

I get the feeling that more often than not we assume that "Western" means exclusively American. Americans may be a part of the West, but their ideals and culture does not represent all Western countries.

The Pressumption of Innocence is inherited from the Roman Law. Therefore it is a very ancient feature of Western laws. The problem was that this principle was widely abused both by monarchs and by aristocracy in order to maintain control over the populace. That's why all social groups demanded this principle to be confirmed in privilages that were granted individually to each social class.

[tung2sai]

I hope this is a little relavent to this topic.

There are other influences other than the big 3 of Buddhism, Confucianism, and Taoism in Chinese culture,
as well as other influences other than the big 3 of Ancient Greek, Roman and Judeo-Christian values in Western culture.

I did study a bit about Judaism for roughly 3-4 years, mainly because the curriculum at my liberal arts college is heavily based on the humanities. We paid a lot of attention to current events, politics and different cultures.
The other reason I study Judaism was because I had a couple of Jewish friends who were practicing their beliefs, and were willing to share it like shabbat dinners, so it got me more interested.

From what I know so far, Judaism seems to have a very different view of history in comparison to what I was taught in school, especially history of the west.
A lot of their orthodox beliefs appear to be quite in conflict with many Western values, in which the orthodox members defined as values of the Ancient Greeks and Romans. Like attitudes regarding sexuality, philosophy, family, etc.

To make things short, the more I read about Judaism and history of the Jewish people, the more erringly similar it seems to Chinese thinking. Like their emphasis on education and family, their survival mentality, definitions of creativity, justice and friendship, etc. I could sort of see how the Jewish definition of God seems a little similar to how Shang-di or Heaven (Tian) is describe. It's not exactly the same, but how God is describe in Judaism is a little different than Christianity, a little more closer to Shang-di.
Even some of the superstitions are similar, like they too believe dead relatives communicate through dreams, the importance of names, how they relate special foods on holidays with particular meanings, etc. Like for example, there is this one holiday where they actually serve the whole fish with head and tail for a "successful year".
I was surprised to find these things, but I realized how little I really know, so I tried as best to be open-minded as possible.

There are many obvious differences, but overall speaking, considering how much impact the values of Judaism has on the West and the similarities between this and Chinese thinking, and there are some similarities with some greek and roman thought with Chinese thinking too, that both the West and China have a lot of common with each other than what a lot of people assume.

Find out yourselves...

http://www.aish.com/

http://www.meaningfullife.com/

[JiG]

I have a professor from Beijing University teaching my 20th Century Chinese History class and he taught in his first class about "Chinese and Western Difference in Cultural and Historical Perceptions"

So let me post them up here and we can discuss the accuracy or inaccuracy of the assessments:

Difference in the concept of morality
Western: a moral person must be honest, namely, always telling the truth
Chinese Confucian: honesty gives way to loyalty and filial piety

*He elaborated that in the west if someone (even a family member of close friend) were to break the law you must hold that person accountable to the law since that is the perceived "moral" thing to do. But in China if a family member or close friend breaks the law, then the moral thing to do is protect that person from punishment since he is your kin and to protect your kin is the moral thing to do. He also said that Chinese "hate law", but I don't know if he meant for this reason though.

Differences in the way of thinking
Western: "comes to the point", from micro to macro, focusing on the specifics
Chinese: step-by-step exploring the idea and purpose, from macro to micro emphasizing the "general"

History perspective
Chinese historians: analyze from general perspective, and explore motive and significance
Western historians: more attention to a witness narrative and statistics that show different aspects of the event and results. Their conclusions are based on interpretation of the info.

View of the ideal world
West: broadly associated with democracy, freedom, equality
Chinese: Confucian concept; "Harmony" based on collective effort and responsibility as well as perfect top down arrangement.

[galvatron prime]

Western View on suspect
You are innocent until proven guilty

Chinese view
You are guilty until proven innocent

Western view on War
Question First ,Strike Later

Chinese view on war
Strike first,question later

Western of on teacher who bring you up
Once a teacher do not mean always a teacher

Chinese view on Teacher who bring you up
once a teacher ,always a teacher ,forever teacher,must be respected whole life

Edited by galvatron, 17 January 2008 - 10:54 PM.

[JiG]

Western view on War
Question First ,Strike Later

Chinese view on war
Strike first,question later

Well the US is adopting this Chinese view lately. lol

Western View on suspect
You are innocent until proven guilty

Chinese view
You are guilty until proven innocent

Is this reflecting in Chinese law?