140 replies to this topic

[XL5]

I should add one more thing. My understanding of Chinese culture is limited, but I have interacted plenty of times with Chinese friends and family in the U.S., Taiwan, and China. My observations of their behavior and my discussions with them form the basis of my opinions.

So even if what I have expressed so far about satire, irony, etc., may sound offensive to some people, there is more than a very small sample size backing it up. Also, what I call satire, etc., could be modified to be called Western-style satire, etc., to distinguish it better.

[大泽升龙]

I should add one more thing. My understanding of Chinese culture is limited, but I have interacted plenty of times with Chinese friends and family in the U.S., Taiwan, and China. My observations of their behavior and my discussions with them form the basis of my opinions.

So even if what I have expressed so far about satire, irony, etc., may sound offensive to some people, there is more than a very small sample size backing it up. Also, what I call satire, etc., could be modified to be called Western-style satire, etc., to distinguish it better.

I really think this only applies to individuals. I have no problem to understand British satire at all. Sometimes I found myself have a better perception of the humor than British people. My observation says some continental European people have difficulties to understand British irony, especially German, but I did find French and Italian people have a sense of fun and I suppose American people should not have problem either. Personally I think it is more related to linguistic skills. I can give you a real example in my life here:

I watched Futurama with my British friends once. Afterwards, we caught up with a bit of gossip.
One English guy said: "I wonder why bender means homo in Britain." (Bender was the robot character in Futurama)
Another Scottish guy said: "it probably imitates the gesture of a guy bending over while another doing behind."
I said: "No, it is because the bender is not straight!"
Then all British people laughed: "Ahhh---"
I then said: "You see, a Chinese teaching Brits how to be a mastur of oral skills!"

If you can catch the sense of the humor in this coversation above, it means you can understand the British satire and me also British enough. Most of the time, we find humors with sexual connotation funny. This is common between Chinese and British people. Sometimes we like to talk some ethno-cultural jokes like blonde jokes and Jewish jokes.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 24 January 2008 - 12:00 PM.

[XL5]

I really think this only applies to individuals. I have no problem to understand British satire at all. Sometimes I found myself have a better perception of the humor than British people. My observation says some continental European people have difficulties to understand British irony, especially German, but I did find French and Italian people have a sense of fun and I suppose American people should not have problem either. Personally I think it is more related to linguistic skills. I can give you a real example in my life here:

I watched Futurama with my British friends once. Afterwards, we caught up with a bit of gossip.
One English guy said: "I wonder why bender means homo in Britain." (Bender was the robot character in Futurama)
Another Scottish guy said: "it probably imitates the gesture of a guy bending over while another doing behind".
I said: "No, it is because the bender is not straight!"
Then all British people laughed: "Ahhh---"
I then said: "You see, a Chinese teaching Brits how to be a mastur of oral skills!"

If you can catch the sense of the humor in this coversation above, it means you can understand the British satire and me also British enough. Most of the time, we find humors with sexual connotation funny. This is common between Chinese and British people. Sometimes we like to talk some ethno-cultural jokes like blonde jokes and Jewish jokes.

大泽升龙, of course it's wrong to assume any observation about a small sample of people applies uniformly to a race or country. I agree that there are differences for each individual, but it is not possible to make conclusions based solely on one's own intuition. For example, my wife mentioned that there are a few Beijing political jokes and comedians that are famous for satirical jokes, but I wouldn't know because they weren't translated. Nor is it a given that such jokes typify the type of Western humor I am talking about.

So I try to gather more anecdotal evidence, like bringing-up this topic in this forum. And ongoing discussion with my Chinese friends.

I spoke with one of my Chinese coworkers again last night, and he agrees with my earlier statements, adding that over time he has come to appreciate Western jokes that he wouldn't have thought to be funny when he first came to the U.S. His experience is that Chinese people behave more seriously in public than do Westerners, and they wouldn't appreciate some kinds of humor, such as the quote from Hitchhiker's Guide--to him that quote would have seemed serious and not funny at all a few years ago. But he is from Malaysia and might not have a true understanding of Beijing-style humor. (Naturally, my wife, who is reading this over my shoulder, claims to have had a good understanding of Western humor even when she was a little brat in Taiwan. Go figure.)

My coworker and I pondered the phenomenon of cultural assimilation w.r.t. humor. My conclusion is that, whether one calls it linguistics or language understanding or cultural assimilation, the phenomenon of finding a joke to be humorous is fundamentally the same. It is rooted in having a programmed reaction as to what constitutes acceptable humor and it is learned over time.

I mentioned in another thread that I've studied cognitive behavior, and especially human undertsanding of humor. Not to mention a whole lotta experiments on rats. I'm always eager to describe the humor mechanism in humans, because I find it so fascinating. But, to go into that mechanism at length here could border on thread-jacking! So, is it ok to continue in this thread?

Let me know, please. Thanks!

Edited by XL5, 20 January 2008 - 02:25 PM.

[fireball]

A little brat from Taiwan is now speaking. The Beijing humor I told XL5 about are the modern day political jokes in Beijing that show up in local newspapers, on walls, or on Chinese internet. There are also the Chinese performance art of 相聲 (xiang sheng - two people comedy shows) that do no limit itself in just Beijing, but many other areas. There were also jokes or humorous actions created by famous Chinese persons, like Su Dongpo or others who had never had any exposures to the Western cultures and lived in societies that were more traditionally Chinese than today's mainland China. I don't have ready examples for XL5, so maybe some other Chinese CHF members who have access to those could post a few here to let my American husband see the truly great Chinese satirical jokes!!!

I remember I was able to appreciate British or Western humor fairly early on (8 or 10 years old) while reading the translated British or Western books and stories. I haven't met any Westerners around then, and I only watched at most two or three 007 movies, so ... I can't agree that Chinese and Westerners are so different in perceiving humor. Personally, I think it was due to language, culture understanding, nervousness, family upbringings, or just individual personalities.

About the legal/morality part of this discussion:

Yes, most Chinese would look down on the son or daughter who has turned in their parents to government because the parents have violated the laws. However, many modern day Chinese also feel respect about Koxinga's (Zheng Chenggong 鄭成功) actions of refusing his father's specific orders to surrender to Qing government and to let Qing government kill his father and their family members. His actions were also explained away with the Confucian principles that the Emperors are in the higher positions than the fathers (parents), and the nations are in the higher positions than one's own family or family members. Many Chinese parents followed those Confucian principles actually killed themselves when they were used as hostages to force their sons' betrayal to the Emperors or lords -- Xu Shu's 徐庶 mother killed herself (I believe) after Xu Shu went to Cao Cao in 3 kingdom's time (or was it from the ROTK and not true history?) There were other examples also, but I couldn't think of the specifics at this time.

My father talked about the difficulties of being a good judge and a good government official in Chinese society. I talked about a few of his examples in other threads in more details. Basically, many of the Chinese government officials in my father's shoes in ancient China as well as today are/were walking on a very narrow balance beam trying to balance between what is right and what is wrong. What is right to one's family is probably what is wrong to the society or to the law as well as to the Confucian principle of being loyal to one's own responsibilities (信 xin4 - faithfulness), being loyal to one's Emperor and one's lords (忠 zhong1 - loyalty), not to mention, to one's fellow human beings (義 yi4 - righteousness)!

Therefore, in China, there has always been this phrase in the hearts and minds of people with integrity: "忠孝不能兩全" (One could not fulfill both loyalty to the Emperor and filial piety to the parents at the same time!) I do not think “Chinese people do not follow the law” or “Chinese people would place family above laws” could be applied to all Chinese in every situation. I think many Chinese know which laws are OK to break and which laws are not – The laws that come from corrupt government(s) to give trouble to average commoners should be broken any day and any time. The universal laws of decency should never be broken even they are not actual laws and have not been carved in stones. Anyone who has lived in a Chinese society for any length of time would probably hear common people on the streets saying things like “This should not be!” There are laws in Chinese society even the Emperors or governments with tanks and guns could not oppose, and those laws are written deeply in Chinese psyche.

Also, Chinese always try to maintain the harmony of the world around them, and many Chinese laws, actions, legal rulings, customs, and traditions are/were all trying to maintain such harmonies and might seem to be not as straightforward or honest or direct in the Western views. Western actions of honesty, directness, and straightforwardness could be considered as rude, barbaric, hurting other's feelings, as well as disturbing the peace and harmony of the society.

Edited by fireball, 20 January 2008 - 03:49 PM.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

He replied that even in China with western restaurants they will not serve chopsticks.

That's bizarre. It seems as though the favor is not returned on this account. I'll have to see this for myself, as I plan on living in China for 40 weeks for intensive language study in Beijing (not to say Beijing represents the country as a whole, by far it does not).

Eric (En Rui)

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

A little brat from Taiwan is now speaking.

I love Fireball! That was a great post; do Chinese people find Monty Python funny? It's absolutely silly and an acquired taste, I know, but their often witty humor is delectable. Even their most brutal humor is hilarious.

Eric (En Rui)

[fireball]

I love Fireball! That was a great post; do Chinese people find Monty Python funny? It's absolutely silly and an acquired taste, I know, but their often witty humor is delectable. Even their most brutal humor is hilarious.

Eric (En Rui)

I love Monty Python and many of my Chinese friends in U.S. (not ABC's and are first generation immigrants) also, but I could only represent myself and a small group of Chinese though. I think I actually prefer the British humor more than the American ones. I think British humor is very similar to Beijing humor I have read or heard.

Btw, I think the Western restaurants would offer chopsticks soon when there are more rich Chinese touring the West and refusing to use forks and knives. Personally, I think many Chinese in the West have low self confidence in our own culture due to lacking of understanding of our own culture. The famous scholar 辜鴻銘 (gu1 hong2 ming2) in late Qing and early Republic era refused to wear Western clothings in the West and kept his queue in Beijing University when he was a Professor there. He spoke many Western languages and was a master in Chinese culture. He defended Chinese customs and Chinese cultures to the Westerners and Chinese during those days and was able to do so in many different Western languages eloquently. Please see: http://en.wikipedia....iki/Gu_Hongming and http://zh.wikipedia..../wiki/辜鸿铭. I do not like some of the Chinese traditions he defended, but I admire his spirits and try very hard to learn from him.

Edited by fireball, 21 January 2008 - 12:48 AM.

[大泽升龙]

I love Fireball! That was a great post; do Chinese people find Monty Python funny? It's absolutely silly and an acquired taste, I know, but their often witty humor is delectable. Even their most brutal humor is hilarious.

Eric (En Rui)

I like Monty Python, especially the Holy Grail. An Icelandic girl told me British humor was the best, I couldn't deny it.

[fcharton]

I believe there is a difference between Monty Python and the examples XL5 provided (Douglas Adams, I suppose you could add Pratchett, maybe Neil Gaiman, and for the older writers, I'd put Jane Austen). Even though both count as British humour, the latter are very language related.

I mean, some people might not like Monty Python's style, but I don't think anyone would "not get it" in the sense that he/she would not realise they are joking. This, on the other hand, can be perfectly missed in the Adams example provided above, or in other similar cases.

In french litterature, the same would be true for some famous repartee, or work like Flaubert's dictionary of received ideas, which are made out of the thin air which is language. To enjoy this form of humour, you first need to detect it, and this means a very good proficiency in language.

In fact, some of these jokes are not gotten by native speakers/readers of the language, as they presuppose some kind of cultural references.

So I think it is less about chinese being less responsive to satire, than satire usually using tricks which are harder for a non-native speaker.

This said, I would agree that different cultures have different approaches at humour. Some, notably the british, and the japanese, love making fools of themselves. The french and british revel in insolence (which is not a good thing, because the french can always be more insolent in french, and the british in english, so it is a "perpetual draw"). I think both of these are less appreciated in China.

Francois

[大泽升龙]

大泽升龙, of course it's wrong to assume any observation about a small sample of people applies uniformly to a race or country. I agree that there are differences for each individual, but it is not possible to make conclusions based solely on one's own intuition. For example, my wife mentioned that there are a few Beijing political jokes and comedians that are famous for satirical jokes, but I wouldn't know because they weren't translated. Nor is it a given that such jokes typify the type of Western humor I am talking about.

So I try to gather more anecdotal evidence, like bringing-up this topic in this forum. And ongoing discussion with my Chinese friends.

I spoke with one of my Chinese coworkers again last night, and he agrees with my earlier statements, adding that over time he has come to appreciate Western jokes that he wouldn't have thought to be funny when he first came to the U.S. His experience is that Chinese people behave more seriously in public than do Westerners, and they wouldn't appreciate some kinds of humor, such as the quote from Hitchhiker's Guide--to him that quote would have seemed serious and not funny at all a few years ago. But he is from Malaysia and might not have a true understanding of Beijing-style humor. (Naturally, my wife, who is reading this over my shoulder, claims to have had a good understanding of Western humor even when she was a little brat in Taiwan. Go figure.)

My coworker and I pondered the phenomenon of cultural assimilation w.r.t. humor. My conclusion is that, whether one calls it linguistics or language understanding or cultural assimilation, the phenomenon of finding a joke to be humorous is fundamentally the same. It is rooted in having a programmed reaction as to what constitutes acceptable humor and it is learned over time.

I mentioned in another thread that I've studied cognitive behavior, and especially human undertsanding of humor. Not to mention a whole lotta experiments on rats. I'm always eager to describe the humor mechanism in humans, because I find it so fascinating. But, to go into that mechanism at length here could border on thread-jacking! So, is it ok to continue in this thread?

Let me know, please. Thanks!

To avoid bogging into the detailed psychological technicalities, I would say the humour occurs more likely among the people sharing similar "memes". Languages, experiences and background knowledges are very important. In fact, I can assure you it is quite common that some northern Chinese jokes don't work well with southern Chinese, and vice versa; of course, a Chinese person who cannot understand English very well may also miss the core part of an English joke. I can give you two examples of joke coming out with language understanding:

1) a Chinese one: This one happened when I was at the university. Students came from different regions all over China. We were talking about different local desserts. We mentioned Saqima (萨其马) which was a Chinese character transliteration of the Manchurian word for Qiegao (切糕, my literal translation should be "cake dice"). We asked everyone whether they had tasted it. You know, in Mandarin, Ma also means horse. There was a guy from Fujian, the southeast China. He shouted: " there was no Ma (horse) in my hometown!"


2) an English one: This one happened when I was in England. We built up our own lingo within our circle. We liked to use "dog" to refer the cool able guy. One day, an Indian girl got high and showed off:"I am the dog!" We guys there all laughed and said:"You cannot be the dog, you are the bitch!"

Edited by 大泽升龙, 23 January 2008 - 11:20 PM.

[XL5]

To avoid bogging into the detailed psychological technicalities, I would say the humour occurs more likely among the people sharing similar "memes". Languages, experiences and background knowledges are very important. In fact, I can assure you it is quite common that some northern Chinese jokes don't work well with southern Chinese, and vice versa; of course, a Chinese person who cannot understand English very well may also miss the core part of an English joke. I can give you two examples of joke coming out with language understanding:

1) a Chinese one: This one happened when I was at the university. Students came from different regions all over China. We were talking about different local desserts. We mentioned Saqima (萨其马) which was a Chinese character transliteration of the Manchurian word for Qiegao (切糕, my literal translation should be "cake dice"). We asked everyone whether they had tasted it. You know, in Mandarin, Ma also means horse. There was a guy from Fujian, the southeast China. He shouted: " there was no Ma (horse) in my hometown!"


2) an English one:This one happened when I was in England. We built up our own lingo within our circle. We liked to use "dog" to refer the cool able guy. One day, an Indian girl got high and showed off:"I am the dog!" We guys there all laughed and said:"You cannot be the dog, you are the bitch!"

Well, my example from Douglas Adams isn't about puns or wordplay, it's about a very specific kind of ironic or sarcastic humor.

I just realized there's another group that I presuppose does not appreciate the kind of humor I'm talking about: middle Americans. I have often seen such people respond-to and use a simpler idiom of humor that is more direct and very similar to Chinese humor fireball has shown me on the internet.

Maybe this is more of an internet phenomenon. There's this one U.S. forum I participate in, and the people crack the most mundane humor. If I try once in a while to be even a little dry or satirical, I get the feeling people are offended because my words are not sweet and mild and, well, obvious. It's like there isn't any understanding of--or participation in--forms of humor requiring a bit more roleplay.

[fireball]

I remember a Beijing style of humor that is very British like. I think I read it on Taiwan writer Tang Lu Sun's books.

A Beijing gentleman went to Gobuli Baozi Restaurant (狗不理包子) in Bejing. He sat down at the next table to a laborer type of a guy. The laborer was eating happily of the very famous and very juicy meat baos. The hot juices spurred a few feet over all over the Beijing gentleman's face, head, and clothing! The waiters felt sorry for the gentleman and offered him hot towels to clean himself. The Beijing gentleman said without any temper, "No hurry. He still has 4 baos left!"

This is the type of dry humor I talked about with Beijing people. XL5 also agrees that it is like the British humor, but I am not sure that is the kind of humor or satire he talks about though. I remember reading a few of them on Chinese newspapers and internet, especially the Beijjing ones about politics, so ... I could translate them as long as I have the Chinese original.

[Yun]

But my point is that the joke works especially well if you do think digital watches are current and trendy. That is where the satire is most effective, because of that very conflict in what you might think is trendy and what the joke is saying about it.

Very good point. I forgot that The Hitchhiker's Guide was written in the late 1970s, when digital watches were considered cutting edge technology and were all the rage. That's another problem with social satire - it can be very time-specific, and lose its effectiveness on audiences from later generations. Of course, there are also writers like Dickens and Austen (the latter of whom Fcharton mentioned) whose satirical humour transcends time because their writing is so effective at conveying the culture and mentality of the age to readers who might otherwise not understand it. I'm sure someone could think of similar examples from pre-modern Chinese satirical literature.

[大泽升龙]

Well, my example from Douglas Adams isn't about puns or wordplay, it's about a very specific kind of ironic or sarcastic humor.

I just realized there's another group that I presuppose does not appreciate the kind of humor I'm talking about: middle Americans. I have often seen such people respond-to and use a simpler idiom of humor that is more direct and very similar to Chinese humor fireball has shown me on the internet.

Maybe this is more of an internet phenomenon. There's this one U.S. forum I participate in, and the people crack the most mundane humor. If I try once in a while to be even a little dry or satirical, I get the feeling people are offended because my words are not sweet and mild and, well, obvious. It's like there isn't any understanding of--or participation in--forms of humor requiring a bit more roleplay.

There are a whole spectra of humour there with different levels of satire. It may be also called diversty. We can find many classical satiric idioms in Chinese which were all from the real stories in history, like 郑人买履, 杞人忧天, 掩耳盗铃, 刻舟求剑, 买椟还珠, 画蛇添足, 指鹿为马, etc. Most of them are ironic highbrow satires. However, lowbrow jokes do have their market.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 23 January 2008 - 09:48 PM.

[大泽升龙]

I remember a Beijing style of humor that is very British like. I think I read it on Taiwan writer Tang Lu Sun's books.

A Beijing gentleman went to Gobuli Baozi Restaurant (狗不理包子) in Bejing. He sat down at the next table to a laborer type of a guy. The laborer was eating happily of the very famous and very juicy meat baos. The hot juices spurred a few feet over all over the Beijing gentleman's face, head, and clothing! The waiters felt sorry for the gentleman and offered him hot towels to clean himself. The Beijing gentleman said without any temper, "No hurry. He still has 4 baos left!"

This is the type of dry humor I talked about with Beijing people. XL5 also agrees that it is like the British humor, but I am not sure that is the kind of humor or satire he talks about though. I remember reading a few of them on Chinese newspapers and internet, especially the Beijjing ones about politics, so ... I could translate them as long as I have the Chinese original.

I found I could easily find humours in my life and I didn't need quote others. However, I haven't built up the habbit to collect them. I do feel some ironic stuff works better on openminded people with a sense of humour. Here comes two examples:

1) I had a Scottish friend who was very tall, roughly 2 metres high. If you didn't know him, you might be deterred by his physical appearance. In fact, he was a nice single guy with a tricky character. He was out of fit but did not look fat due to his height. He had never done any heavy labour in his life and seldom worked out. One day, I had a chance to shake hands with him. I found his hands very soft and tender. I held up one of his hands and said: "This is not a man's hand." He was very surprised. He lifted his eyes round and smiled, then repeated with a strange tone:"This is not A man's hand?!" I replied:"Good for wanking, isn't?" Can you sense the humour in it? We both felt humorous, but it might be offensive to someone else.

2) There was a Chinese girl, newly came to England. Her vocabulary was limited. For example, the meanings of words like c**k and dick meant differently from ours. She thought a c**k was a rooster and Dick was a man's name. One day, we together with some British friend had a random coversation. My British friends were going to travel in Thailand soon. We happened to come with the topic about the ladyboys. We thought ladyboys were different from each other, some might have cocks like us guys, some might not have. Suddenly, the Chinese girl asked one English guy:"You have a c**k! Where is it?" I think it is really funny if you were in the context.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 23 January 2008 - 09:49 PM.