140 replies to this topic

[fireball]

I found I could easily find humours in my life and I didn't need quote others. However, I haven't built up the habbit to collect them. I do feel some ironic stuff works better on openminded people with a sense of humour. Here comes two examples:

1) I had a Scottish friend who was very tall, roughly 2 metres high. If you didn't know him, you might be deterred by his physical appearance. In fact, he was a nice single guy with tricky character. He was out of fit but did not look fat due to his height. He had never done any heavy labour in his life and seldom worked out. One day, I had a chance to shake hands with him. I found his hands very soft and tender. I held up one of his hands and said: "This is not a man's hand." He was very surprised. He lifted his eyes round and smiled, then repeated with a strange tone:"This is not A man's hand?!" I replied:"Good for wanking, isn't?" Can you sense the humour in it? We both felt humorous, but it might be offensive to someone else.

2) There was a Chinese girl, newly came to England. Her vocabulary was limited. For example, the meanings of words like c**k and dick meant differently from ours. She thought a c**k was a rooster and Dick was a man's name. One day, we together with some British friend had a random coversation. My British friends were going to travel in Thailand soon. We happened to come with the topic about the ladyboys. We thought ladyboys were different from each other, some might have cocks like us guys, some might not have. Suddenly, the Chinese girl asked one English guy:"You have a c**k! Where is it?" I think it is really funny if you were in the context.

Yes, I found both funny, and I agree you might offend some people. I and many of my friends made similar mistakes in U.S. like the Chinese girl in (2) when our English were still pretty poor.

Btw, XL5 is going to take his exam soon and is not available for a few days. He would be back soon to continue this conversation.

Edited by fireball, 21 January 2008 - 09:45 PM.

[fireball]

I believe there is a difference between Monty Python and the examples XL5 provided (Douglas Adams, I suppose you could add Pratchett, maybe Neil Gaiman, and for the older writers, I'd put Jane Austen). Even though both count as British humour, the latter are very language related.

I mean, some people might not like Monty Python's style, but I don't think anyone would "not get it" in the sense that he/she would not realise they are joking. This, on the other hand, can be perfectly missed in the Adams example provided above, or in other similar cases.

In french litterature, the same would be true for some famous repartee, or work like Flaubert's dictionary of received ideas, which are made out of the thin air which is language. To enjoy this form of humour, you first need to detect it, and this means a very good proficiency in language.

In fact, some of these jokes are not gotten by native speakers/readers of the language, as they presuppose some kind of cultural references.

So I think it is less about chinese being less responsive to satire, than satire usually using tricks which are harder for a non-native speaker.

This said, I would agree that different cultures have different approaches at humour. Some, notably the british, and the japanese, love making fools of themselves. The french and british revel in insolence (which is not a good thing, because the french can always be more insolent in french, and the british in english, so it is a "perpetual draw"). I think both of these are less appreciated in China.

Francois

Both XL5 and I really enjoy Pratchett's books and eagerly waiting for any new installments!!! We also like a similar writer in the American SF scene, Piers Anthony, but I think Pratchett is much, much better! I am not sure whether you could also consider Roger Zelazny or Robert Anton Wilson (of The Historical Illuminatus Chronicles) in the same categories or not. All of them used the same types of word tricks as well as certain irony or satire in their writings. XL5 also loves the books by Neil Gaiman, but I have not read his books. I also like Jane Austen's books and thought her humor was very understated and definitely British and upper class. I have seen certain behaviors and cutting remarks from upper class Chinese ladies and gentlemen that behaved exactly like Jane Austen's characters -- some of them could be humorous if you are not the victim of such remarks.

Francois, I am not sure about the insolent ones. You have to give me an example in English. Thanks!

I read a few of the Su Dongpo's jokes on his friends including word games. However, those really could not be translated because of the problems of their being the word games and closely associated with the Chinese language! Any attempts to translate would only generate !

[ChineseMythDragon]

1. Chinese, Korean and Japanese societies are more collective than Western
2. Chauvanism
3. Eastern socities have Confucianism
4. EDUCATION
5. East is inclined to nature, West is inclined to science
6. East is spontaneous, West is consistent

Edited by ChineseMythDragon, 26 February 2008 - 10:07 PM.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

To the user who just spammed this thread with petition sites about Tibet, please, if you are here to discuss Tibet, do not spam totally unrelated threads with your plug-in advertisements. Thank you.

Eric (En Rui)

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Frankly, I think this disctinction between West and China is simplistic and full of stereotypes that are no longer true. Today's Chinese are far more materialistic, competitive, and forward looking than an average Westerners, and alot of those sterotypes about Europeans are actually more true for the Chinese. There are still lots of religious influence in America but not in China, and the average Chinese plan far more ahead than an average American in life. Most Americans I know tends to save far less than the Chinese and are not really concerned about their future.

[senor boogie woogie]

Howdy!

I am an American living in China, and have been for the past seven years. I have a Chinese wife, work in a Chinese University, and of course, I am around the people and the culture all the time.

Chinese seem to have no respect for schedules. Like I said, I am working for a Chinese University. Today in September 1st, and no one has contacted me to tell me when I need to return to school or has given me any information at all. When I finally return, I will ask about the semester schedule, and they wont know it even though this is important in my scheduling my classes and my class plan. as in, do we have a week off for October 1, or only the weekend? Is Mid-Autumn holiday a day off? More than likely, they wont know.

One thing that annoys most foriegners teaching here concerns working a weekend to make up for a holiday. For example, if one had a holiday on a Friday, then one has to work on Sunday to "make up" that holiday, or work the whole weekend to "make up" for classes lost. So to have a holiday, the worker must work a 7-8 day week for five days off.

My first headmaster liked to change the start times for class in the mornings every few months. Class would start at 7:45 for two months, then 8:15 for a bit, then back to 8:00. Of course no one would tell me about this, so I would end up coming in early or late one Monday a month and being asked why, and then me saying, "Because nobody told me." with a yea yea yea.

I worked for another school that would have a longer lunch in the spring than in the fall because people like to nap after lunch. This was annoying because my campus was an hour away from my home, and I am having to sit on my a*** an extra thirty minutes (of an already 1 1/2 hour lunch break) while people nap. I'm sorry, but unless you are under 6, over 75, medicated, or sick, I never have seen the need for an afternoon nap. I will say that my new University does do that mess, it's an 1.5 hour lunch everyday.

Chinese people talk everything to death, even the easiest questions. Continuous streams of conversation about nothing. It is very common to see two people have a 15 minute conversation in the supermarket about what kind of laundry detergent they want. Just buy it already. Chattering, chattering everywhere. This excessive talking also goes into their small businesses where it is almost a requirement to "bargain" to get a decent price on something. I refuse to bargain, I absolutly despise it.

Chinese are extremely wasteful people. It is very common in the summertime for the air conditioner to be on and the windows and the doors to be wide open. Chinese also use so much paper. Everything has to have a paper with it. Staying in a hotel, you get a receipt. When you leave the hotel, you get a receipt (which I throw away in the trash). China is really a beautiful nation, but there is so much garbage and shite strewn about, things just wastefully thrown away. People who can afford a car have them, even in the bigger cities where one does not need to have them. In Hangzhou where I live, there is no place to park a vehicle, and many are parked illegally on sidewalks, or having to pay some attendent. Honestly, I would not have a car here, no matter of my economic class.

Senor

[shunyadragon]

What are the major differences between chinese and western culture?

I'll list down a few differences:

West:

1. Western culture is based on individualism rather than on mass (collectivism). For instance, in the US, you always talk about individual rights, instead of placing the whole society above your own self. This is clearly different in China where a country, society or family are placed above your own self.

2. Western culture is adventurous and exploration based. Westerners like to discover new things, invention and expand outwards. For instance, bungee jumping is considered adventurous and common in western culture, but you will probably find no-one doing such a thing in China.

3. Western culture is based on science, which attempts to resolve people and nature's relationship.

4. West uses law to resolve people and people's relationship. You can never find 'law' well-established in China. For 2000 years, China is a land that's based on human relationship rather than law.

5. West uses 'god' and religion to resolve human and spiritualism relationship. In case of problems with your own self, you just pray to god.

6. A culture that expands and develop outwards.


Chinese Culture:

1. A culture based on masses (collectivism). People placed country and family above your own self.

2. A culture that is based on humanism and people

3. To resolve the relationship betwen man and nature, the chinese attempts to fuse the human and 'heaven' as one. (天人和一)

4. To resolve people and people's relationship, chinese uses ethics and tolerance (中恕之道)

5. To resolve human and spiritualism, chinese emphasizes internal cultivation (修身养性)

6. A focus on balance and mean. By 'mean', it means 'middle way'. You don't go into extremism. Peace is always honoured.

7. Pay homage to heaven and earth, as well as bearing a remembrance to the homeland. (敬仰天地,思乡怀土) This was accorded to the fact that chinese had been a farming civilization and therefore will be more prone to remember their land.

8. A culture that expands internally rather than outwards.


Some of the disadvantage of old chinese culture:

1. Debase women and chauvanistic

2. An over-emphasis on past history instead of present (lacks pragmatism)


Can you list some more differences? Any comments and contributions are appreciated.

Some of your contrasts in cultures are valid, but most are more of degree, and not so contrasting. Also there are negative tones and a bias in some of your descriptions of western attributes particularly your description of western religion.

5. West uses 'god' and religion to resolve human and spiritualism relationship. In case of problems with your own self, you just pray to god.

It is too simplistic to conclude that in the west you just pray to God to resolve problems. Religion is very much a part of culture in both the east and the west.

In China, this aspect of religion can be found in Buddhism.

Chinese and Orientals in general turned to the 'Source' called God in the west and attempted to develop spiritual relationships as making offerings at temples. Ancient ritual and sacrifice also appealed to the 'Source'

5. To resolve human and spiritualism, Chinese emphasizes internal cultivation (修身养性)

Taoism is very strong in this aspect, and Buddhism also to some degree emphasizes internal cultivation.

In the west, internal cultivation and contemplative disciplines similar to meditation developed in the monastic communities in a similar manner as eastern monastic practices.

Some prayer in the east and the west is as much aimed at internal cultivation as it is communication with the 'Source,' and/or what lies beyond our physical world.

There are some differences in how the Oriental cultures and Western cultures view the world.

What motivates our relationships?

In the west we fear death. In the east it is chaos and disorder that is their greatest fear.

This underlying motive in relationships effects the advancement in technology, medicine' politics, and the differences in religion between the east and west.

[Yizheng]

Well, I just read all this interesting discussion.
Two things always strike me in this kind of debate. First, 'the West' seems in many people's minds to be a homogenous entity based on a contemporary image of corporate and consumer culture most associated with the USA. And 'China' or 'the East', is a kind of timeless entity full of respectful, responsible collectivist people all frozen into Confuciun values.
Second is that our judgements are necessarily limited by our subjective experience and knowledge, so the real diversity and huge amount of nuances get overlooked.
It made me laugh to read Senor Boogie Woogie's post because it sounded like he's describing Russia, not China.
I have personal experience of different cultures and societies, West and non-West, I've always been caught somewhere in between in terms of influences, and I've lived, studied and worked in different countries, always like a kind of outsider, but it giave a chance to just observe what I see around me. I notice that some of the posters drew up lists of values supposedly West or East, and in different societies particular conditions and history will indeed probably lead to certain values becoming prominent. I have never been to America, but I imagine that with its particular history of development (religious settlers, having to develop and open up a new land) values such as adventurous spirit, God, importance of the individual, probably would become the founding values in that society.
I think people often forget the West is not some kind of single entity, but is also very diverse. Each 'Western' country has its own distinct history and conditions, even if there are some common religious and philosphical traditions. The values perceived now as 'Western' I would say are not 'western' or 'eastern' but simply 'modern'. Respect for age versus vitality of youth, for example. The fetish with youth and growing disregard for age is a recent development and is more about consumer culture than 'west' or 'east'. And consumer culture itself in its modern immediate gratification and wasteful form is a modern development. It is a modern thing that families have shrunk, that generations live apart, that talk now is all of 'rights' and not of 'obligations'. I think this is something that has maybe gone beyond the old notion of 'west' and 'east'. It has already displaced the old values and way of life of the west, and is now doing so in the east. This is urbanisation, increasing uniformity of consumer habits, and this brings with it change in values too.
People in Russia say the west is very materialistic and has no spiritual dimension, but it is hard to find a place more materialistic and obsessed with youth, money and image than Moscow. You go practically anywhere in the world now and in the big cities the culture and values are becoming so much more similar.
As for the different west-east values, harmony and contemplation, the search for the mean, usually associated with the east, but Greek philosphers speak of the same ideals. Importance of soceity above the individual, also associated with the east, but then you read say, Rousseau's 'Social Contract', and it puts the collective above the individual. Adventurous spirit, in some countries yes, but what about Blaise Pascal, mathematician and curious mind, but he said our misfortunes come from the fact that we can't just stay settled in one room. supposedly Western values like scientific explanation of the world, living with rather than in nature, also have their counterparts in eastern countries and history. The more you look at what is 'west' or 'east', the more you see that there is a common foundation that is universal, and that is now being displaced by a different foundation that is also universal in nature rather than based on one particular civilisation.
Maybe the one significant difference that I would tentatively advance based on my purely subjective experience is this: the east is more inclined to a fatalistic view and the west takes more the view that you are the master of your destiny. Maybe I perceive it this way just because I've got more the fatalistic view deep inside me no matter what I do to be the master of my destiny, so maybe my assertion has no real basis, but this, anyway, is how I see east and west.
sorry for being so boring and humourless, some of the posts had some good bits about humour, irony etc. I like Monty Python, and I like slapstick stuff too, and I like word puns, and Beijing humour... Yeah, I like to laugh, I just never remember the jokes afterwards.

[shunyadragon]

Well, I just read all this interesting discussion.
Two things always strike me in this kind of debate. First, 'the West' seems in many people's minds to be a homogenous entity based on a contemporary image of corporate and consumer culture most associated with the USA. And 'China' or 'the East', is a kind of timeless entity full of respectful, responsible collectivist people all frozen into Confuciun values.
Second is that our judgements are necessarily limited by our subjective experience and knowledge, so the real diversity and huge amount of nuances get overlooked.
Yeah, I like to laugh, I just never remember the jokes afterwards.

Like your post. It was interesting. I have live in several differnt cultures. I was born in the US but grew up mostly in Latin America, and after living and working for a number of years in the US I spent 9 years in China.

Even though there are distinct differences, stereotypes and generalizations about different cultures are often misleading

[Pendragon]

Very interesting discussion, I've read about half of it so far.

It was mentioned a number of time that this is mostly a comparison between the US and China. Some points:

- religion is very visable in North America, Latin America and parts of Southern Europe. Whether it's really an important influence is not clear to me, some say it's mostly symbolic and superficial ("miles wide but inch deep"). In Northern Europe religion is not more important than in China. I notice that Chinese people sometimes say "thank god for that", "let's hope god helps us" etc, maybe to make westerners feel comfortable. But it surprised me, I would never hear that in the Netherlands.

- the US is particularly focussed on laws, trying to arrange everything in contracts and legal responsabilities. This is strange to a European, here there are many more things you can arrange by a word and a handshake. And maybe it's my steriotype of the US, but we definitally don't sue eachother over small issues here.

There are some more differences, some have been mentioned already.

I also agree with YiZheng that some traits identified as Western may be more general features of social change (perhaps of modernization, but that's a difficult word to use). Countries around the world become more fully urbanized (China certainly has had large cities for ages, but a real urbanized society seems a new development), more wealthy, more open to outside influences. In this process their cultures change, and they may in some ways start resembling Western cultures. But this doesn't have to mean that they adopt Western culture, it could mean that they go through processes that Western countries went through earlier in history and changed them in a similar way.

And also some cultural traits identified as Chinese may be more typical for countries in transition towards capitalism (or at least moving away from old-school communism).

But whatever may be the source of the contrasts, there definitally are deep differences in ideas and lifestyles between China and most Western countries. Many Westerners experience a strong culture shock in China, and I guess Chinese people have a similar experience when they travel to Western countries. It's very useful for us to find out what cultural differences drive this culture shock.

[WangGeon]

- religion is very visable in North America, Latin America and parts of Southern Europe. Whether it's really an important influence is not clear to me, some say it's mostly symbolic and superficial ("miles wide but inch deep"). In Northern Europe religion is not more important than in China. I notice that Chinese people sometimes say "thank god for that", "let's hope god helps us" etc, maybe to make westerners feel comfortable. But it surprised me, I would never hear that in the Netherlands.

I doubt it has really an religious significance for most Chinese unless they're Christian or Muslim of course. "Thank goodness" and "thank god" are pretty common in American colloquial speech since Christianity influenced culture here very significantly; even if one doesn't beleive in anything, one still says it anyway unless one is a devout atheist (kind of a oxymoron/paradox there). When I tought EFL in Korea, I found my Korean students using those phrases as well although most of them don't profess to belong to any religious affiliation. I'd imagine that it has something to do with the simple situation that American English and American English expressions are considered the norm for EFL education.

As far as religiosity in the US goes, it varies from place to place. Its power over American culture is diminishing, but it's still very pronounced to the point that there's a controversy over suggestions of removing "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. We do have a particularly strong conservative Christian component in the US and religious matters still affect political decision-making; a church-going politician who shrewdly shows off his church-going character is more likely to attract votes than an atheist or a person of any other faith. At the most extreme, we have people like Ann Coulter, she who screams about her god-fearing ways mightily like a street prophet wearing a hellfire and brimstone placard.

- the US is particularly focussed on laws, trying to arrange everything in contracts and legal responsabilities. This is strange to a European, here there are many more things you can arrange by a word and a handshake. And maybe it's my steriotype of the US, but we definitally don't sue eachother over small issues here.

We just like to have things written on paper. A contract to an American means a real guarantee. You might say it's a mild paranoia, but that's just the way we are. We don't feel comfortable if things aren't spelled out clearly on paper. One of the biggest complaints that Americans have about living and working abroad is that contracts tend to be "guidelines" as opposed to something set in stone.

I also agree with YiZheng that some traits identified as Western may be more general features of social change (perhaps of modernization, but that's a difficult word to use). Countries around the world become more fully urbanized (China certainly has had large cities for ages, but a real urbanized society seems a new development), more wealthy, more open to outside influences. In this process their cultures change, and they may in some ways start resembling Western cultures. But this doesn't have to mean that they adopt Western culture, it could mean that they go through processes that Western countries went through earlier in history and changed them in a similar way.

I agree too. "Western" is kind of an arbitrary term as there's different "Western" cultures; an EFL teacher who taught in Germany noted that Germans are remarkably more group-oriented than Americans or British, which came as an initial shock. In the past, "Western" cultures were just as conservative as "Eastern" cultures. The cause for differences have more to do with the trajectories of development.

Edited by WangGeon, 04 July 2009 - 11:57 AM.

[OscarCohen]

Ancient Roman and Greeks did not have science just like China.

Not science in greece, romans?? Where did you learn history???????

List of greek scientist looong ago

Anaxagoras
Anthemius
Antiphon
Apollonius
Archimedes
Archytas
Aristaeus
Aristarchus
Aristotle
Autolycus of Pitane
Bryson
Callippus
Chrysippus
Cleomedes
Conon
Democritus
Dinostratus
Diocles
Dionysodorus
Diophantus
Domninus
Eratosthenes
Euclid
Eudemus of Rhodes
Eudoxus
Eutocius
Geminus
Heraclides of Pontus
Heron
Hipparchus
Hippias
Hippocrates
Hypatia
Hypsicles
Leucippus
Marinus of Neapolis
Menaechmus
Menelaus
Nicomachus
Nicomedes
Oenopides of Chios
Pappus
Perseus
Philon of Byzantium
Plato
Porphyry
Posidonius
Proclus
Ptolemy
Pythagoras
Serenus
Simplicius
Sporus
Thales
Theaetetus
Theodorus
Theodosius
Theon of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna
Thymaridas
Xenocrates
Zeno of Elea
Zeno of Sidon
Zenodorus


Anaxagoras
Antiphon
Archytas
Aristotle
Chrysippus
Cleomedes
Democritus
Eudoxus
Heraclides of Pontus
Hippias
Hypatia
Leucippus
Plato
Porphyry
Posidonius
Proclus
Ptolemy
Pythagoras
Simplicius
Thales
Xenocrates
Zeno of Elea


Apollonius
Archimedes
Aristarchus
Aristotle
Autolycus of Pitane
Callippus
Cleomedes
Conon
Democritus
Eratosthenes
Euclid
Eudoxus
Eutocius
Geminus
Heraclides of Pontus
Heron
Hipparchus
Hypsicles
Menelaus
Pappus
Plato
Porphyry
Posidonius
Proclus
Ptolemy
Simplicius
Thales
Theodosius
Theon of Alexandria
Theon of Smyrna


Aristotle
Cleomedes
Democritus
Eudoxus
Heraclides of Pontus
Plato
Porphyry
Posidonius
Proclus
Ptolemy
Simplicius
Thales


Anaxagoras
Antiphon
Apollonius
Archimedes
Bryson
Carpus
Dinostratus
Hippias
Hippocrates
Nicomedes
Oenopides
Sporus


Al-Haytham
Johann Bernoulli
Cusa
Franco of Liège
James Gregory
Lambert
Leonardo
Lindemann
Porta

tHEY WERE EXTREME SCIENTIFIC!!!!!

Edited by OscarCohen, 05 July 2009 - 10:47 AM.

[OscarCohen]

Look specially on the name Phytagoras!!

[WangGeon]

I think that line was to mean that ancient Greek sciences had a different perspective from Chinese sciences. They both may have very well been looking at the same phenomena, but the philosophy around such phenomena differed.

Edited by WangGeon, 05 July 2009 - 11:55 AM.

[animerlot]

And songs like 大刀砍向鬼子去 promotes? peace and love?

Revenge for father, mother, wife, children, brother and friends been killed by 鬼子.