Jump to content


Photo

Scholar Claims Find 1,000-Year-Old Jewish Capital


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 galvatron prime

galvatron prime

    Chief State Secretary (Shangshu Ling 尚书令)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 911 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:malaysia
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Chinese
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 20 September 2008 - 10:55 PM

Scholar Claims to Find 1,000-Year-Old Jewish Capital

http://www.foxnews.c...,425687,00.html

MOSCOW — A Russian archaeologist says he has found the lost capital of the Khazars, a powerful nation that adopted Judaism as its official religion more than 1,000 years ago, only to disappear leaving little trace of its culture.

Dmitry Vasilyev, a professor at Astrakhan State University, said his nine-year excavation near the Caspian Sea has finally unearthed the foundations of a triangular fortress of flamed brick, along with modest yurt-shaped dwellings, and he believes these are part of what was once Itil, the Khazar capital.

By law Khazars could use flamed bricks only in the capital, Vasilyev said. The general location of the city on the Silk Road was confirmed in medieval chronicles by Arab, Jewish and European authors.

"The discovery of the capital of Eastern Europe's first feudal state is of great significance," he told The Associated Press. "We should view it as part of Russian history."

Kevin Brook, the American author of "The Jews of Khazaria," e-mailed Wednesday that he has followed the Itil dig over the years, and even though it has yielded no Jewish artifacts, "Now I'm as confident as the archaeological team is that they've truly found the long-lost city,

The Khazars were a Turkic tribe that roamed the steppes from Northern China to the Black Sea :charge: . Between the 7th and 10th centuries they conquered huge swaths of what is now southern Russia and Ukraine, the Caucasus Mountains and Central Asia as far as the Aral Sea.

Itil, about 800 miles south of Moscow, had a population of up to 60,000 and occupied 0.8 square miles of marshy plains southwest of the Russian Caspian Sea port of Astrakhan, Vasilyev said.

It lay at a major junction of the Silk Road, the trade route between Europe and China :) , which "helped Khazars amass giant profits," he said.

The Khazar empire was once a regional superpower, and Vasilyev said his team has found "luxurious collections" of well-preserved ceramics that help identify cultural ties of the Khazar state with Europe, the Byzantine Empire and even Northern Africa. They also found armor, wooden kitchenware, glass lamps and cups, jewelry and vessels for transporting precious balms dating back to the eighth and ninth centuries, he said.

But a scholar in Israel, while calling the excavations interesting, said the challenge was to find Khazar inscriptions.

"If they found a few buildings, or remains of buildings, that's interesting but does not make a big difference," said Dr. Simon Kraiz, an expert on Eastern European Jewry at Haifa University. "If they found Khazar writings, that would be very important."

Vasilyev says no Jewish artifacts have been found at the site, and in general, most of what is known about the Khazars comes from chroniclers from other, sometimes competing cultures and empires.

"We know a lot about them, and yet we know almost nothing: Jews wrote about them, and so did Russians, Georgians, and Armenians, to name a few," said Kraiz. "But from the Khazars themselves we have nearly nothing."

The Khazars' ruling dynasty and nobility converted to Judaism sometime in the 8th or 9th centuries. Vasilyev said the limited number of Jewish religious artifacts such as mezuzas and Stars of David found at other Khazar sites prove that ordinary Khazars preferred traditional beliefs such as shamanism, or newly introduced religions including Islam.

Yevgeny Satanovsky, director of the Middle Eastern Institute in Moscow, said he believes the Khazar elite chose Judaism out of political expediency — to remain independent of neighboring Muslim and Christian states. "They embraced Judaism because they wanted to remain neutral, like Switzerland these days," :clapping: he said.

In particular, he said, the Khazars opposed the Arab advance into the Caucasus Mountains and were instrumental in containing a Muslim push toward eastern Europe. He compared their role in eastern Europe to that of the French knights who defeated Arab forces at the Battle of Tours in France in 732.

The Khazars succeeded in holding off the Arabs, but a young, expanding Russian state vanquished the Khazar empire in the late 10th century. Medieval Russian epic poems mention Russian warriors fighting the "Jewish Giant."

"In many ways, Russia is a successor of the Khazar state," Vasilyev said.

He said his dig revealed traces of a large fire that was probably caused by the Russian conquest. He said Itil was rebuilt following the fall of the Khazar empire, when ethnic Khazars were slowly assimilated by Turkic-speaking tribes, Tatars and Mongols, who inhabited the city until it was flooded by the rising Caspian Sea around the 14th century.

The study of the Khazar empire was discouraged in the Soviet Union. The dictator Josef Stalin, in particular, detested the idea that a Jewish empire had come before Russia's own. He ordered references to Khazar history removed from textbooks because they "disproved his theory of Russian statehood," Satanovsky said.

Only now are Russian scholars free to explore Khazar culture. The Itil excavations have been sponsored by the Russian-Jewish Congress, a nonprofit organization that supports cultural projects in Russia.

"Khazar studies are just beginning," Satanovsky said. B)

#2 kaiselin

kaiselin

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 5,530 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Northwest OHIO
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Mythology
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Esoteric symbols, and the intangible yin world as expressed in classical Chinese art, culture and mythology.

Posted 21 September 2008 - 07:54 AM

Fascinating article.

You can only go halfway into the darkest forest; then you are coming out the other side.


CHF Newsletter
http://www.chinahist...hp?showforum=57
Han Lin Journal
http://www.chinahist...hp?showforum=26
Mail box for Letters to the Editor
http://www.chinahist...p...=21509&st=0


#3 MongolAssassin

MongolAssassin

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 12 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    None

Posted 12 October 2008 - 04:12 AM

Modern day Jews are not descendants from Khazars like a lot of people now say they are. The real descendants of Khazars are not around anymore, the closest relatives are the Mongols, Timurids, and their descendants, etc... The modern days Jews are not Khazars, they are the ones who backstabbed the Khazars and committed one of the worst betrayals in history.

If you read up on Khazar-Jewish relationships, you'll see that the Khazars were orginally an Asiatic-Turkish tribe who had nothing to do with judaism. The first formal encounters between Khazars and Jews was when the Jews were fleeing from persecution and mistreatment from the Byzantines. The leaders of Khazaria were kind hearted and offered a place for the Jews to escape danger. The reasons for why Khazrian leaders later set Judaism as the national religion is very complex story which I'm not going to get into, but not long after the Khazarian king adopted Judaism as the kingdom's official religion, the real-Jews started taking advantages of the Khazar citizens through religious manipulations.

The Jews would ultimately cause the downfall of Khazaria through betrayal. They told the Byzantines and the Rus all the secrets of the Khazar fortress and all the traps and secret doorways and entrances as well as all the main battle procedures and movement of Khazar troops. Sad thing about this is that the Jews ended up helping the Byzantines bring down Khazaria even though the main reason why the Khazars ever let Jews in their the gates in the first place was because they had sympathy for the backstabbers who were fleeing the Byzantines.

#4 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:32 AM

Modern day Jews are not descendants from Khazars like a lot of people now say they are.The real descendants of Khazars are not around anymore, the closest relatives are the Mongols, Timurids, and their descendants, etc...



The original ancient Jews were indigenous ' Semitic ' people.Today's world Jewry is a ' mix bag '.
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#5 Non-Han Nan Ban

Non-Han Nan Ban

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Master Scholar (Juren)
  • 1,536 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Fairfax, Virginia
  • Interests:All of Chinese history. Seriously.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    History of Chinese Science and Technology

Posted 12 October 2008 - 11:15 AM

The original ancient Jews were indigenous ' Semitic ' people.Today's world Jewry is a ' mix bag '.


Indeed, there are even black Jews.
Posted Image
"Wait for the wisest of all counselors...Time"
- Pericles, 5th century BC Athenian statesman and strategos

#6 peepee

peepee

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 353 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    NE Asia anthropology & archaeology

Posted 12 October 2008 - 11:42 AM

Exactly .... the word ' Jew ' now has dual meanings,ethnicity and religion.
我相信一個原則:

國與國之間,沒有永遠的朋友和敵人,沒有絕對的公理和正義,永恆不變的只是國家利益.

#7 Yizheng

Yizheng

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 587 posts
  • Location:Moscow
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    none

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:02 PM

I think Caucasus mountain Jews and Karaims see themselves as descendents of the Khazars.

#8 William O'Chee

William O'Chee

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Columnist
  • 2,264 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brisbane, Australia
  • Interests:History; political philosophy; rowing; bobsled and skeleton; going to extraordinary places.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Han dynasty, Neo-Confucianism

Posted 13 October 2008 - 10:13 AM

Modern day Jews are not descendants from Khazars like a lot of people now say they are. The real descendants of Khazars are not around anymore, the closest relatives are the Mongols, Timurids, and their descendants, etc... The modern days Jews are not Khazars, they are the ones who backstabbed the Khazars and committed one of the worst betrayals in history.

If you read up on Khazar-Jewish relationships, you'll see that the Khazars were orginally an Asiatic-Turkish tribe who had nothing to do with judaism. The first formal encounters between Khazars and Jews was when the Jews were fleeing from persecution and mistreatment from the Byzantines. The leaders of Khazaria were kind hearted and offered a place for the Jews to escape danger. The reasons for why Khazrian leaders later set Judaism as the national religion is very complex story which I'm not going to get into, but not long after the Khazarian king adopted Judaism as the kingdom's official religion, the real-Jews started taking advantages of the Khazar citizens through religious manipulations.

The Jews would ultimately cause the downfall of Khazaria through betrayal. They told the Byzantines and the Rus all the secrets of the Khazar fortress and all the traps and secret doorways and entrances as well as all the main battle procedures and movement of Khazar troops. Sad thing about this is that the Jews ended up helping the Byzantines bring down Khazaria even though the main reason why the Khazars ever let Jews in their the gates in the first place was because they had sympathy for the backstabbers who were fleeing the Byzantines.

This language seems a little extreme, even if the belief is reasonably held.

Perhaps you could give some sources for the case you are arguing.

#9 ShingenT

ShingenT

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 676 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:甲府の躑躅ヶ崎館
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    computers, asian and western history

Posted 13 October 2008 - 11:14 AM

haha, first of all, regarding the validity of the article.
This is coming Fox, the same people that blames stock plunge on Obama.
I wouldn't be so trusting with a group that has a political agenda. :P

I doubt they know the difference

Hebrews--
language and people while nomadic;
before they enter Canaan and Palestine;
before they accept Yahweh

Israelites--
Describes the Hebrew people AFTER settlement in Palestine
after acceptance of Yahweh

Jews--
Specifically refers to the people of Judah,
especially after the return from Babylonian Captivity in 538 B.C.

unless they can prove Khazars came from the kingdom of Judah, they can't say they are Jew.


@MongolAssasin,
Can you elaborate on the event?
Seems pretty harsh to call Jewish people backstabbers.
Who else in history hasn't backstabbed each other?
I can't seem to find the source of this claim.
Khazars themselves never documented much, so it would be difficult to take into account.
Posted Image
疾如風徐如林侵掠如火不動如山
南無諏方南宮法性上下大明神

#10 Chris Weimer

Chris Weimer

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 394 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Memphis, TN
  • Interests:Antiquity
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Literature
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Dao Jia; Graeco-Roman cultures; early Judaism and Christianity

Posted 13 October 2008 - 09:49 PM

"Jews--
Specifically refers to the people of Judah,
especially after the return from Babylonian Captivity in 538 B.C.

unless they can prove Khazars came from the kingdom of Judah, they can't say they are Jew."

This is not accurate, neither historically nor in current usage. Jew, since ancient times (well before Jews went to Khazaria) could be applied to converts. Ross Kraemer did thorough job of looking at some examples in her article in the Harvard Theological Review on Iudus/Iuda in Latin Inscriptions.
Chris Weimer, M.A. Student
Department of Classics, SFSU

B.A. Honors and Thesis
University of Memphis
Latin & Greek Major
Judaic Studies Minor

#11 MongolAssassin

MongolAssassin

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 12 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    None

Posted 14 October 2008 - 02:01 AM

@MongolAssasin,
Can you elaborate on the event?
Seems pretty harsh to call Jewish people backstabbers.
Who else in history hasn't backstabbed each other?
I can't seem to find the source of this claim.
Khazars themselves never documented much, so it would be difficult to take into account.


I myself haven't been able to find much on the Internet about this topid, but if you go to many Turkish historical communities then they can give you more info on this topic. There are lots of things regarding Turkish history that are no where to be found on the net, and this is one of them. Matter of fact, Western civilization have been puzzeled by the question of what happened to the Khazars for many centuries. Well my advice here is to research the path of Genghis Khan's ancestors; and you can go to Kazakhstan and ask some of the people there yourself about this matter if you don't trust me.

Anyways about me calling Jewish people backstabbers. It to me that you feel that I'm implying that backstabbing is the only Jewish trademark and Jews are the only group of people who ever backstabbed anyone in history. I don't know why you seem to feel that way because all I'm saying was that the Jews backstabbed Khazaria by telling to Rus and Byzantines secrets of Khazaria fortifications. And in those instances "backstabbing" is more than appropriate in terms of vocabulary.

For starters you read what Western Internet sources have to saky about Khazaria; but most Western sources over the internet leaves out major chunks of details which Central Asian Turkish history bluffs can give ya. I trust th Central Asian Turks more as a source because they are more closely related to Khazars than anyone in the West.

#12 madalibi

madalibi

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 670 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:residing in Beijing
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    ancient Chinese thought, Chinese law, Chinese medicine, Ming-Qing cultural history

Posted 14 October 2008 - 03:20 AM

Hi MongolAssassin,

I think people reacted to the following words in your first post:

"backstabbed the Khazars and committed one of the worst betrayals in history"

These were pretty strong words! Maybe you're not aware of this, but the term "backstabbing" has been so consistently associated with anti-Semitic rhetoric that it was legitimate to wonder what you were implying. If I said that the Chinese officials who dealt with the British in the 19th century were "effeminate," "duplicitous," and "inscrutable," you could legitimately denounce me for perpetuating tendentious clichés. Your choice of terms here gives me the same impression.

It would also be great if you could cite specific sources for your claims about how the Khazar empire fell. I'm sure you'll agree that telling members of an Internet community to "trust the Central Asian Turks" or "go to Kazakhstan yourself" is not particularly helpful. ;)

For starters you read what Western Internet sources have to saky about Khazaria; but most Western sources over the internet leaves out major chunks of details which Central Asian Turkish history bluffs can give ya. I trust the Central Asian Turks more as a source because they are more closely related to Khazars than anyone in the West.

Actually the Wikipedia page on the Khazars is very detailed and it appears to be well referenced. The Wiki on the Khazars' "Decline and Fall" looks very useful, with its three sub-sections on the "Kabar rebellion and the departure of the Magyars," "Diplomatic isolation and military threats," and the "Rise of Rus." And it took me less than a minute to find a long introduction to a book by Kevin Alan Brook called The Jews of Khazaria. The site www.khazaria.com (where I found out about the book) also contains links to all kinds of information and articles on the Khazar empire. So I'm sure there's a lot more to discuss about the Khazars even if we use only English-language resources!

Cheers,
Madalibi

#13 ShingenT

ShingenT

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 676 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:甲府の躑躅ヶ崎館
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Asian History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    computers, asian and western history

Posted 14 October 2008 - 10:43 AM

This is not accurate, neither historically nor in current usage. Jew, since ancient times (well before Jews went to Khazaria) could be applied to converts. Ross Kraemer did thorough job of looking at some examples in her article in the Harvard Theological Review on Iudus/Iuda in Latin Inscriptions.


Interesting, I got the info from my class notes.
I might need to consult with the professor about this.
Posted Image
疾如風徐如林侵掠如火不動如山
南無諏方南宮法性上下大明神

#14 William O'Chee

William O'Chee

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Columnist
  • 2,264 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brisbane, Australia
  • Interests:History; political philosophy; rowing; bobsled and skeleton; going to extraordinary places.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Han dynasty, Neo-Confucianism

Posted 14 October 2008 - 10:49 AM

I myself haven't been able to find much on the Internet about this topid, but if you go to many Turkish historical communities then they can give you more info on this topic. There are lots of things regarding Turkish history that are no where to be found on the net, and this is one of them. Matter of fact, Western civilization have been puzzeled by the question of what happened to the Khazars for many centuries. Well my advice here is to research the path of Genghis Khan's ancestors; and you can go to Kazakhstan and ask some of the people there yourself about this matter if you don't trust me.

Anyways about me calling Jewish people backstabbers. It to me that you feel that I'm implying that backstabbing is the only Jewish trademark and Jews are the only group of people who ever backstabbed anyone in history. I don't know why you seem to feel that way because all I'm saying was that the Jews backstabbed Khazaria by telling to Rus and Byzantines secrets of Khazaria fortifications. And in those instances "backstabbing" is more than appropriate in terms of vocabulary.

For starters you read what Western Internet sources have to saky about Khazaria; but most Western sources over the internet leaves out major chunks of details which Central Asian Turkish history bluffs can give ya. I trust th Central Asian Turks more as a source because they are more closely related to Khazars than anyone in the West.

I don't think you really add anything to your historical analysis by using value laden words like "backstabbing." Supposing the things you claim happened, why not simply relate what information was supposedly given to the Russians and Byzantines without describing this as backstabbing. Why not leave that value judgment to the reader? I think that is better history.

#15 MongolAssassin

MongolAssassin

    Prefect (Taishou 太守)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 12 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    None

Posted 15 October 2008 - 01:52 AM

It would also be great if you could cite specific sources for your claims about how the Khazar empire fell. I'm sure you'll agree that telling members of an Internet community to "trust the Central Asian Turks" or "go to Kazakhstan yourself" is not particularly helpful. ;)


Madalibi, I've already stated that it'll be hard for me to give solid verifications for what I've said because most of the information I have is practically no where to be found on the internet. These information are taught in Central Asia: Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgizstan, Turkmenistan.

Your not the only who has asked "show me the evidence" as there are numerous people in the West who has done so before. Now I'll just say this: if you don't trust anything I say right now because I'm unable to provide you any source, then please keep what I've stated in mind. Perhaps sometime in the future I may be able to show the sources via the net if Central Asian countries starts using Internet more.


Actually the Wikipedia page on the Khazars is very detailed and it appears to be well referenced. The Wiki on the Khazars' "Decline and Fall" looks very useful, with its three sub-sections on the "Kabar rebellion and the departure of the Magyars," "Diplomatic isolation and military threats," and the "Rise of Rus." And it took me less than a minute to find a long introduction to a book by Kevin Alan Brook called The Jews of Khazaria. The site www.khazaria.com (where I found out about the book) also contains links to all kinds of information and articles on the Khazar empire. So I'm sure there's a lot more to discuss about the Khazars even if we use only English-language resources!


I went through all the Western sources on Khazaria and they are all a bunch of Swiss-Cheese information (Full of holes). They can probably give you a "Rough Outline" but I don't think that you should make any judgements yet because people often get twisted, skewed perceptions about historical events when they read information which are only rough-outlines and Swiss-Cheese information.


I don't think you really add anything to your historical analysis by using value laden words like "backstabbing." Supposing the things you claim happened, why not simply relate what information was supposedly given to the Russians and Byzantines without describing this as backstabbing. Why not leave that value judgment to the reader? I think that is better history.


The Jews told them secrets of Khazarian fortresses and all the locations of were the main Khazarian soldiers were camped. And when the Rus under the leadership of Sviatoslav launched their sneak attack on Khazarian fortresses, the Jews who were in Khazaria would sabotage the locks to the fortress gates beforehand and some even opened the gates to let the Rus inside, just like that one guy who betrayed Ming-China and opened gates for Manchu. They also sabotaged weapons and drugged the food and water of Khazarian soldiers before the Rus attacked.

The Rus and the Jews were working in close coordination with one another and they planned it all out. The Khazars were mostly clueless about these matters and they were a too trustful of their Jewish guests. I'll explain in more detail if you would like, but that should be enough for now.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users