10 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

Many of those who read the history of hui-chinese (also known as muslim chinese) will know that they do have some arabic influence (in terms of culture or blood lineage). In fact, hui-chinese were a mix between han-chinese and arabic/persian/central asian.

The chinese articles at http://xzs.2000y.net...sp?NewsID=73905 and
http://xzs.2000y.net...p?NewsID=175877 mention that Hui-chinese had a larger influence coming from persian culture/central asian culture, as a result of large influx of many persian/central traders to Ningxia/Gansu region.

What do you think of this? Were there more persian influence or arabian influence? Or do you think the articles are not correct ?

[Sinoid]

I think Huis had quite a diverse make of different ethnic groups in more central / central nw China exclude areas of todays XJUAR. They converted to Islam thereforce became Hui. So Huis could have been Han, Mongol, Qiang etc.

Since Islam was brought to more inner parts of China by central Asian / Arab / Persian merchants and travellers, many of the early establishment of the group would have had some root there. But genetically, this source would have diluted over the centuries and today most Huis are predominantly Mongoloidal looking.

[Karakhan]

Many of those who read the history of hui-chinese (also known as muslim chinese) will know that they do have some arabic influence (in terms of culture or blood lineage). In fact, hui-chinese were a mix between han-chinese and arabic/persian/central asian.

The chinese articles at http://xzs.2000y.net...sp?NewsID=73905 and
http://xzs.2000y.net...p?NewsID=175877 mention that Hui-chinese had a larger influence coming from persian culture/central asian culture, as a result of large influx of many persian/central traders to Ningxia/Gansu region.

What do you think of this? Were there more persian influence or arabian influence? Or do you think the articles are not correct ?

it depends where the Hui are from. As you know, the modern Hui ethnicity was simply something the government created, and classified all ethnicity of Islamic faith that did not fall into existing categories. As a result Hui can vary depending on region, to those who do have persian and central asian heritage, to those who are of tibetan heritage, or closer relations with austronesian speaking peoples in Hainan, etc.

Any study of "Hui" is meaningless unless the author specifies where the Hui samples were taken.

[GreyShades]

A DNA test on those whom claimed to be Hui found up to 14% West Asian blood.

[Yun]

I think we already talked about how culturally and genetically diverse the Hui are on this thread: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1355

There are indeed Hui familes, for example in Fujian, who trace themselves to Arab merchants who stayed and intermarried. But often the only visible feature of this is their Muslim faith and their surname (e.g. Ding, after Arabic 'ud-Din', or Pu, after Arabic 'Abu'). In other aspects, such as language, clothing, and food, they show no surviving traces of Arab culture.

As for the Hui in Gansu, Ningxia, Yunnan, and Qinghai, these are mostly descended at least partly from Turkic-speaking immigrants from Central Asia and/or Xinjiang (the Tarim Basin), and are therefore not directly related to Arabs or Persians. However, Muslims in Gansu and Ningxia did travel to Arabia to study the Sufi branch of Islam in the 18th century, and brought Sufism back to their own communities: http://en.wikipedia....lion#Background

[LongMa]

I think we already talked about how culturally and genetically diverse the Hui are on this thread: http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=1355

There are indeed Hui familes, for example in Fujian, who trace themselves to Arab merchants who stayed and intermarried. But often the only visible feature of this is their Muslim faith and their surname (e.g. Ding, after Arabic 'ud-Din', or Pu, after Arabic 'Abu'). In other aspects, such as language, clothing, and food, they show no surviving traces of Arab culture.

As for the Hui in Gansu, Ningxia, Yunnan, and Qinghai, these are mostly descended at least partly from Turkic-speaking immigrants from Central Asia and/or Xinjiang (the Tarim Basin), and are therefore not directly related to Arabs or Persians. However, Muslims in Gansu and Ningxia did travel to Arabia to study the Sufi branch of Islam in the 18th century, and brought Sufism back to their own communities: http://en.wikipedia....lion#Background

Based on what I read this is correct. Islam spread into Central Asia, first by Arabs and Persians, but later after the Turko-Mongol conversion of Genghis Khan's descendants it seemed to spreed up the process among Turkic speaking people in Central Asia quite a bit and those people were heavily influenced by the Islamic culture of Persia as many of the Turko-Mongols (I use this term because they were quite mixed by this time) never left Persia, even after the fall of the Khanate, they intermixed with the local Persian population. In reality though, Western EurasianTurks were already mixed with Persians hundreds of years before Genghis Khan. Most of Central Asia was "Indo-Iranian" speaking before the Turkic invasions and had ties to Persian for centuries before Islam. It seems the majority of gene flow was East to West for much of this history as people came out of Mongolia, but a lot of culture/religion flowed West to East after the rise of Islam and Buddhism got obliterated in almost all of Central Asia.

Hui, I would assume are mostly Turko-Mongol in admixture with some Persian and Arab strains...possibly even South Asian (the Mughul (Mongol) Empire of India was Islamic, Turk-Mongol-Persian, mostly Persian speaking, and controlled large swaths of Afghanistan and I'm sure they traded with China).

[XiaoXiao]

Islam is not just a religion. But also a culture and political purpose. It happen in ASEAN too, when local culture slowly replaced by middle east Islamic culture. From building, clothes, music, art, etc.

[Mikhail Li]

Islam is not just a religion. But also a culture and political purpose. It happen in ASEAN too, when local culture slowly replaced by middle east Islamic culture. From building, clothes, music, art, etc.

what do you mean ?
Javanese still have javanese culture, music, clothes, architecture, art, music, etc. Yes, there are little bit middle east influence there, but also have chinese, indian, an european influence too.

Edited by Mikhail Li, 27 March 2010 - 06:01 AM.

[sg_han]

what do you mean ?
Javanese still have javanese culture, music, clothes, architecture, art, music, etc. Yes, there are little bit middle east influence there, but also have chinese, indian, an european influence too.

The Javanese are a unique example because they were the rulers of 2 of the greatest empires in south east asia. Even till today, a Javanese will feel insulted if they are called Malays...


I think the process of assimilation if seen more in the Malays. It is no secret that many malays see arabinisation as being more islamic

[Mikhail Li]

The Javanese are a unique example because they were the rulers of 2 of the greatest empires in south east asia. Even till today, a Javanese will feel insulted if they are called Malays...


I think the process of assimilation if seen more in the Malays. It is no secret that many malays see arabinisation as being more islamic

Well, I don't think Javanese are a unique example. Because as far as I know, many ethnics in Java, Sumatra, Kalimantan (Borneo), Sulawesi (Celebes), even part of Maluku still have their culture. Of course there are some middle east influence, but I can't say that influence become dominant.

Actually I don't understand why you people thought Javanese felt insult if they were called "Malays". Because in my opinion many Javanese consider themselves as part of Malayo-Austronesian group. So they accepted the concept Javanese are member of Malay (as a sub-race, not an ethnic).

Yes, I know that many South East Asian muslim see arabisation as being more Islamic, but the arabisation itself has variation. I meant it doesn't depend on certain ethnics, but but rather the environment that surrounds them, for example there are few Sundanese willing to take more and more arabs influenced, and at the same time, many Sundanese choose to be themselves.

[bloodmerchant]

There are some unrelated Muslim ethnic groups who are classified as Hui, such as the Utsul/Huihui people who speak Tsat, which is a Chamic language. They're descendants of refugees from Champa after its fall and settled in Hainan. Oddly enough, I heard that Tsat is a tonal language, due to influence from local Chinese dialects spoken on Hainan.