24 replies to this topic

[mehranjangh]

Hello everybody
In my country there is a legend concerning the infant son of the last Sassanid king who was killed during the arab invasion of Iran. I have done some research on the web and it seems that this is not a legend at all (see
http://www.cais-soas...nian/pirooz.htm ) I wonder if what I have read is accurate. If anybody has anything more to add? And most important, can this family be traced? I do not need to say anything about the immense political ramifications of such a find (and the problems the poor family would possibly go through).

[norenxaq]

Hello everybody
In my country there is a legend concerning the infant son of the last Sassanid king who was killed during the arab invasion of Iran. I have done some research on the web and it seems that this is not a legend at all (see http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/Post...ian/pirooz.htm) I wonder if what I have read is accurate. If anybody has anything more to add? And most important, can this family be traced? I do not need to say anything about the immense political ramifications of such a find (and the problems the poor family would possibly go through).

error 404 when trying your link

[Kenshinng]

error 404 when trying your link

i think just take away the ) at the end and it should work just fine

[ghostexorcist]

Wikipedia has an article on Prince Pirooz that differs from Frank Wong's paper:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirooz_II

Pirooz is discussed in another thread on this forum:

http://www.chinahist...p...8&hl=Pirooz

If you read far enough into the thread, you will see that some members on CHF distrust Frank Wong's claims regarding Pirooz.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

Ah the power of the Tang to simply make some former monarch a new governor of an area in what is now Afghanistan. Those were the days!

Interesting topic. I included this into the Wiki article on the Tang Dynasty a long time ago but did not elaborate then.

[Yun]

If you read far enough into the thread, you will see that some members on CHF distrust Frank Wong's claims regarding Pirooz.

Unfortunately, a much longer thread where I debunked Frank Wong's credibility has apparently been deleted since then, probably because a former member named Chineseman got abusive in his uncriticial support of Frank Wong's claims.

Basically, there is no proof at all that the Narsieh diary Frank Wong mentions even exists, and Wong has also lied about his birthplace on different online forums and articles (saying in one place that he was born near Chang'an, and saying in another that he was born in the USA). So I think his statements are not to be trusted at all.

The Wikipedia article on Pirooz II is accurate, especially after I went in and removed the reference to the Nariseh diary and the link to Frank Wong's article. Both the official dynastic histories of the Tang empire (Jiu Tangshu and Xin Tangshu) verify that Pirooz fled to the Tang empire and received the title of General. However, the two histories disagree about whether it was Pirooz or his son Narsieh who made a Tang-sponsored bid at returning to Persia in 678 or 679.

[Yun]

Ah the power of the Tang to simply make some former monarch a new governor of an area in what is now Afghanistan. Those were the days!

伊嗣俟不君，為大酋所逐，奔吐火羅，半道，大食擊殺之。子卑路斯入吐火羅以免。遣使者告難，高宗以遠不可師，謝遣。會大食解而去，吐火羅以兵納之。

　　龍朔初，又訴為大食所侵，是時天子方遣使者到西域分置州縣，以疾陵城為波斯都督府，即拜卑路斯為都督。俄為大食所滅。雖不能國，咸亨中猶入朝，授右武衛將軍，死。始，其子泥涅師為質，調露元年，詔裴行儉將兵護還，將複王其國。以道遠，至安西碎葉，行儉還。泥涅師因客吐火羅二十年，部落益離散。景龍初，複來朝，授左威衛將軍。病死，西部獨存。

Actually, if you look at the above account in Xin Tangshu, what it reflects is the limits of Tang military power. Suyab (Suiye) and Sogdiana were the furthest west that the Tang empire could deploy its troops, which is why Tang Gaozong rejected Pirooz's appeal for troops to assist him in Tokharistan, and why Pei Xingjian turned back at Suyab and left Narsieh (or Pirooz, if you go with the Jiu Tangshu) to continue on to Tokharistan on his own.

Thus, although 疾陵城 is usually identified as the region of Sistan or Zabulistan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistan ), we also know that the Tang empire was not able to project its power even as far as Tokharistan (i.e. northern Afghanistan, southwestern Uzbekistan, and southeastern Tajikistan), let alone to the border of modern Iran. Those maps which show the Tang empire in the 660s extending deep into Afghanistan and up to Sistan should probably be edited to acknowledge that the Tang Area Commands (dudu fu 都督府) in this region were really more a matter of rhetoric than reality.

[Non-Han Nan Ban]

伊嗣俟不君，為大酋所逐，奔吐火羅，半道，大食擊殺之。子卑路斯入吐火羅以免。遣使者告難，高宗以遠不可師，謝遣。會大食解而去，吐火羅以兵納之。

　　龍朔初，又訴為大食所侵，是時天子方遣使者到西域分置州縣，以疾陵城為波斯都督府，即拜卑路斯為都督。俄為大食所滅。雖不能國，咸亨中猶入朝，授右武衛將軍，死。始，其子泥涅師為質，調露元年，詔裴行儉將兵護還，將複王其國。以道遠，至安西碎葉，行儉還。泥涅師因客吐火羅二十年，部落益離散。景龍初，複來朝，授左威衛將軍。病死，西部獨存
Actually, if you look at the above account in Xin Tangshu, what it reflects is the limits of Tang military power. Suyab (Suiye) and Sogdiana were the furthest west that the Tang empire could deploy its troops, which is why Tang Gaozong rejected Pirooz's appeal for troops to assist him in Tokharistan, and why Pei Xingjian turned back at Suyab and left Narsieh (or Pirooz, if you go with the Jiu Tangshu) to continue on to Tokharistan on his own.

Thus, although 疾陵城 is usually identified as the region of Sistan or Zabulistan ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistan ), we also know that the Tang empire was not able to project its power even as far as Tokharistan (i.e. northern Afghanistan, southwestern Uzbekistan, and southeastern Tajikistan), let alone to the border of modern Iran. Those maps which show the Tang empire in the 660s extending deep into Afghanistan and up to Sistan should probably be edited to acknowledge that the Tang Area Commands (dudu fu 都督府) in this region were really more a matter of rhetoric than reality.

Thank you for clearing this up! I knew that Tang power extended at least to a minimum extent into what is now far northeastern Afghanistan. I just didn't know if their alleged control of areas further west of this into Tokharistan was nominal or real. I see now that it was nominal. Strange that the sources would confuse Pirooz and his son Narsieh, although I've read (I believe from Michael Loewe or Bielenstein) that this sort of inaccuracy or error happened quite frequently in the historical texts in regards to Chinese records on foreigners (i.e. confusing one foreigner for another).

[mehranjangh]

So the prince really existed and he or his son lived in China as a general. But are there any Persian-Chinese communities dating to that period existing in China today? Or were the Iranians all settled in the border lands such as Afghanistan?

[Yun]

But are there any Persian-Chinese communities dating to that period existing in China today? Or were the Iranians all settled in the border lands such as Afghanistan?

There were Persian merchants living in the southern port city of Guangzhou, alongside Arab and Indian merchants. But they have no known descendants in China today.

[Chow Yun-Fat, PhD]

There are foreigners in the capital, in Longyou, in Fujian and in Yangzhou, and at least in the AoF, foreigners dispersed through the major cities. Caravan routes across north China also have foreigners. During the An Shi rebellion the loyalty of many sogdian communities was severely tested and suspected, leading some to apologize to the emperor.

In Fujian the persians etc. raised an army of their own in the ending days of the Tang until they were annihilated by one of the Chinese rebel armies. In Guangzhou they rioted and caused much destruction and in turn were rioted against and suffered much destruction. Guangzhou according to the foreigners was probably more of a seedy pirate town anyway with embezzling and bullying magistrates, and although i believe that, the south also has a lighter military presence (at least until the destruction of the dynasty with rampaging armies) which no doubt contributed.

Edited by Chow Yun-Fat, PhD, 02 October 2008 - 08:31 AM.

[Yun]

In Fujian the persians etc. raised an army of their own in the ending days of the Tang until they were annihilated by one of the Chinese rebel armies.

This was in the last days of Yuan, not Tang. Look for my article "The Arabs of Quanzhou" in the CHF Project Center.

In Guangzhou they rioted and caused much destruction and in turn were rioted against and suffered much destruction.

You can also read about this in my article (this happened during the An Lushan rebellion). It wasn't so much a riot as a looting of the government warehouses, and they did it together with the Arabs.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Suyab (Suiye) and Sogdiana were the furthest west that the Tang empire could deploy its troops, which is why Tang Gaozong rejected Pirooz's appeal for troops to assist him in Tokharistan, and why Pei Xingjian turned back at Suyab and left Narsieh (or Pirooz, if you go with the Jiu Tangshu) to continue on to Tokharistan on his own.

The furthest garrison Tang had at the time was at Kashgar so Tang Tang military deployment didn't even reach these places. Suyab was only made a garrison in 679, when the Tang captured Ashina Duzhi. Contrary to the records of the Jiu Tang Shu, Suyab was never one of the 4 garrisons before this. That is not to say the Tang had no influence over the western turks however, since they were subjugated, the Tang frequently interfered with their politics and appointed their khans. The territory west of the Western turks, which was originally part of their territory such as Sogdiana and Tukharistan was largely outside of Tang's military influence and only received Tang titles and investitures, but they were still within striking range and were economically influenced by the Tang.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 02 October 2008 - 05:21 PM.

[Yun]

The territory west of the Western turks, which was originally part of their territory such as Sogdiana and Tukharistan was largely outside of Tang's military influence and only received Tang titles and investitures, but they were still within striking range and were economically influenced by the Tang.

This is true for the most part, but I was thinking of Gao Xianzhi's expedition against Tashkent and the battle at the Talas River, which is admittedly later and quite exceptional. I was also talking about short-term deployments or expeditions, and not necessarily permanent garrisons.

[mehranjangh]

This has gotten a bit confusing, lets see:
644 CE: protectorate of An-hsi is established reaching Kashgar and Khotan
657 CE: western turks are defeated at lake Issy-Kul and China extended its influence to Herat and Samarkand
665 CE: since no chinese administration was installed in the far lands they easily broke away from chinese control

On the other hand, the Sassanians lost control of Iran in 636 CE, so it is well within the bounds of probability that Pirooz (or his son) could have led Chinese forces in Afghanistan.