152 replies to this topic

[SNK_1408]

There aren't really average East Asian face, because we can't use some randomly collected photos of various people to represent them as average face. It's impossible to measure the average face, because it can be very subjective to the person who collected or used.

Mostly skin color, eyes, facial shape, nose/mouth and cheeks/chin are used to determine the average looks from each ethnicity.

Mind you, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Thais, Filipinos etc.. aren't pure as Mongolian or Korean.
There are many mixed ethnicity in China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippine.

Using nationality to measure the difference is really stupid, because there could be different or mixed ethnicity representing the face of nation.

Examples,

For Japanese people, they really need to divide into three distinctive group; Ainu, Hondo Japanese, Ryukyus
For Chinese people, there are huge difference between North, South, West & East. It needs to be divided into several distinctive groups
And there are so many Chinese mixed in SE Asia as well, so this group needs to be separated from SE Asian locals.

In case with Philippine, it's very difficult because they also have European mixed group too.
So they need to pull out true locals to determine the average looks.

Country like North or South Korea is easy, they just have one ethnicity called "Koreans", you'll get the slightly differences from region to region but basically they all share common origin/facial features.

Trying to compare Hondo Japanese, NE Chinese and Mongolian with "Koreans" will be difficult because there always be disputes because of very close proximity and their common regional genes/climate/food/culture.

There is need for grouping certain regional areas because of close proximity.

[~Hsin_Hpyu_Shin~]

this morphing software ,however non scientific it may be, is certainly very addictive . I set out to get as many frontal shots of Burmese women as possible using google image search and also pbase. Initially i wanted some very good frontal with no makeup but found this impossible as most subjects wore thankha ...





so i gave up on that and just decided that thankha would just have to feature in the morphs



I got 20 in total . I excluded any obvious ethnics either from clothing or very typical features ( eg obvious chinese , obvious indian , obv shan , karen etc - remembering that is subjective as there will obviously be some with Burman majority with either major or minor features from any of the above : those with "minor" features were included as there is no such thing as a pure Burman look unless you go to some of the villages in NW Myanmar ) .


i threw in 1 model and 1 actress as i got deperate for numbers .

Out of the 20 , 14 wore thankha , 6 didn't and 5 were obviously urbanites whereas the rest were rural ( again an assumption )


i made different "cocktails" out of the 20 as described below but gain what intrigued me was they again the morphs all looked very similar and to me very "Burmese".


A. 10 randomly chosen averaged






B. 10 remaining averaged ie therefore all different from A.






C. All 20 averaged

[~Hsin_Hpyu_Shin~]

then i got a bit silly and started making other combinations as described below :


D. The 10 darkest in complexion





E. The 10 lightest in complexion




the "lighter" girl might be marginally prettier but they both look very similar







F. The "prettiest" 10





G. The other 10




again they could be sisters ( it would seem averages on the whole prettier than their individual parts )







H. 15 "RURAL"





I. 5 "URBAN"




to me this one is spot on as slightly more "prominent" front teeth is what i perceive as a rural feature






J. 14 with thanakha on





K. 6 without thanakha on




thanakha is not used exclusively by the poor or rural folk , These two look very similar again.





I think you guys should try with your own ethnicties or ones you are familiar with . All very subjective of course but nevertheless VERY fun .

[2000pwc]

Korean face
Here is what I got with 5 football players, 2 actors, 3 normal people= 10 people. notice the square jaw, long (narrow face), strong chin. taller noses than chinese and japanese.



It's biased to use people of different BMI in averages, because higher BMI means a fatter, wider, less defined face.

Edited by 2000pwc, 07 September 2009 - 05:46 AM.

[LongMa]

There aren't really average East Asian face, because we can't use some randomly collected photos of various people to represent them as average face. It's impossible to measure the average face, because it can be very subjective to the person who collected or used.

Mostly skin color, eyes, facial shape, nose/mouth and cheeks/chin are used to determine the average looks from each ethnicity.

Mind you, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Thais, Filipinos etc.. aren't pure as Mongolian or Korean.
There are many mixed ethnicity in China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippine.

Using nationality to measure the difference is really stupid, because there could be different or mixed ethnicity representing the face of nation.

Examples,

For Japanese people, they really need to divide into three distinctive group; Ainu, Hondo Japanese, Ryukyus
For Chinese people, there are huge difference between North, South, West & East. It needs to be divided into several distinctive groups
And there are so many Chinese mixed in SE Asia as well, so this group needs to be separated from SE Asian locals.

In case with Philippine, it's very difficult because they also have European mixed group too.
So they need to pull out true locals to determine the average looks.

Country like North or South Korea is easy, they just have one ethnicity called "Koreans", you'll get the slightly differences from region to region but basically they all share common origin/facial features.

Trying to compare Hondo Japanese, NE Chinese and Mongolian with "Koreans" will be difficult because there always be disputes because of very close proximity and their common regional genes/climate/food/culture.

There is need for grouping certain regional areas because of close proximity.

I somewhat agree, but I have some point of contention.

In Japan for example, probably 90% of Japanese are Hondo Japanese. Less than 1% of Japan is Ainu. Ryukuans are not considered a separate ethnic group in Japan, but you are correct to point out that they look different (on average). Reality is that the Hondo Japanese are not "pure" each of them have some degree of common ancestry with Ainu and Ryukuans, even if the majority of their ancestry came from another source. Since most Japanese you will see in any major Japanese city (Osaka, Tokyo, etc) are Hondo Japanese there is no reason for me to do a composite of Ryukuans and Ainu, because in Tokyo, Osaka, or just on Japanese TV a typical Japanese would already be "Hondo". A stereotypical Ainu look would never be "typical" not even in Hokkaido, it will always stand out. I've only met one Ainu person in my life, actually she was half Ainu and lived in Tokyo and many Japanese there thought she was a foreigner.

All that being said, when I showed my Chinese and Japanese friends (including my wife) my composites of Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans, only one guy, a guy from Taiwan had trouble telling which was which, everyone else immediately stated their ethnicity within 30 seconds for both male and female.

Does that mean there are not Japanese men who look like the Korean composite? No. There are also Korean men who look like the Japanese composite. The reality is there is overlap, you are correct.

But I view it as this:

[img]http://www.teach-nol...venn3/venn3.gif[/img

The overlap is obvious but that does not mean there is no national average.

Basically, the reason my wife can look at the pictures and say "these two are Japanese and the others are Korean or Chinese" because in her mind she already has a composite image of what an average Japanese person looks like from the fact she grew up in Japan and lived there until she was 17. She knows what her Japanese friends look like, her parents, etc. She also knows instinctively what is outside the norm. Does that mean walking down the street in Tokyo she can automatically tell who is Korean? No, most of the time she cannot. So what I'm trying to figure out with these images is what is the "average" and how far from that average does a face have to vary before people will start saying "oh they don't look Japanese or they are surprised someone is Japanese or they just assume they are Korean and could not be Japanese". That is quite tricky, but I'm pretty convinced the human mind does this all the time subconsciously.

So my interest is not trying to find each unique regional groups appearance, because I don't need to. I had Chinese friends from Shanghai, Beijing, Taiwan, Guangzhou, Shandong, and Dongbei look at my images and all but one guessed the average Chinese man and woman correctly right away when I told them (one is Korean, one is Chinese, one is Japan, please choose which you think is which). The region they were from did not seem to matter. I think the reason is mass media, they all watch tv, movies, etc. They know what other Chinese look like, what the range is for what is Chinese, etc.


My Filipino co-worker also guessed correctly the Filipino composites, but my Thai co-worker could not guess who was Thai. I know one Cambodian man who was born in America but I have not asked him yet. I don't know any Burmese or Vietnamese currently that I can ask about the images I have done for their group. My Uzbek friend saw the Mongol one and thought it was a Krygyz or Kazahk. :-) Close enough I think. haha

[SNK_1408]

People often take stereotype when comparing or identifying different race or ethnicity. This is because media trained our brains to recognize the difference but can't really pick out the REAL DIFFERENCE when it comes to overlapped ethnicity. It's very difficult unless you have trained in anthropology.

Yes, I can see nose, shape of eye, mouse and cheek/chin is slightly different from region to region. But I have seen plenty of overlapped East Asians before, I have even mistaken them being "..... ".

IMO, Koreans quite easy to recognize even with some overlapping faces that look similar to NE Chinese/Japanese/Mongolian.

Keep in mind Nationality doesn't always transparent with 'ethnicity', specially when we deal with highly mixed origins.

[2000pwc]

Used normal people ages 20-40. No famous people, actors, athletes, football players, etc.
There is a HUGE difference when we use normal people....... instead of actors and sportsmen.

Average Japanese male (7 people)- ALL normal people

Features: soft "feminine" face, strong -medium cheekbones, tall narrow nose, larger eyes, average facial hair for Asian, weaker jaw, moderate forehead, small body build.

Average Korean male (8 people)- all normal people

Features: rugged "masculine" face, strong-medium cheekbones, tall narrow nose, average-small eyes, average facial hair, stronger jaw, moderate forehead, larger body build (compare shoulders).

the most similar features between Korean and Japanese is the nose, definitely the same shape (narrow and tall among Asians).

The most different (for males) is the jawline (Korean- sharper/Japanese- softer) and ears (Korean- smaller, not prominent/ Japanese- larger, prominent).

Koreans DO NOT look like Mongolians, for the most part. Mongolians look more like Kazakhs, though there are some Mongols who definitely look Korean, they are not the majority. Koreans more closely resemble the Nanais of China/Russia.

The average Japanese male can't pass for Korean but can pass for Chinese (I think according to the features).

Edited by 2000pwc, 08 September 2009 - 04:16 AM.

[~Hsin_Hpyu_Shin~]

I am now comparing an average of 15 models & actresses with the earlier 20 ( minus the model and actress ) = 18 with the "urban" girls which only make 5
in number



A. 15 models and actresses



B. 18 "ordinary" girls



C. 5 "urban" girls




it is purely speculation to suggest of course that the "desired" features of lighter complexion , larger eyes and fuller lips are more likely to be found amongst urbanites . What is without doubt as in most countries is that desired features are just that and are not the same as average features.

[Gwailo]

There aren't really average East Asian face, because we can't use some randomly collected photos of various people to represent them as average face. It's impossible to measure the average face, because it can be very subjective to the person who collected or used.

Mostly skin color, eyes, facial shape, nose/mouth and cheeks/chin are used to determine the average looks from each ethnicity.

Mind you, Japanese, Vietnamese, Chinese, Thais, Filipinos etc.. aren't pure as Mongolian or Korean.
There are many mixed ethnicity in China, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand and Philippine.

Using nationality to measure the difference is really stupid, because there could be different or mixed ethnicity representing the face of nation.

Examples,

For Japanese people, they really need to divide into three distinctive group; Ainu, Hondo Japanese, Ryukyus
For Chinese people, there are huge difference between North, South, West & East. It needs to be divided into several distinctive groups
And there are so many Chinese mixed in SE Asia as well, so this group needs to be separated from SE Asian locals.

In case with Philippine, it's very difficult because they also have European mixed group too.
So they need to pull out true locals to determine the average looks.

Country like North or South Korea is easy, they just have one ethnicity called "Koreans", you'll get the slightly differences from region to region but basically they all share common origin/facial features.

Trying to compare Hondo Japanese, NE Chinese and Mongolian with "Koreans" will be difficult because there always be disputes because of very close proximity and their common regional genes/climate/food/culture.

There is need for grouping certain regional areas because of close proximity.

there r very small amount of population that has european genes...maybe 1-3% only

anyway there r 2 types of native faces in the Philippines....Malay/indo variety who migrated from Malaysia/Indonesia to the Philippines

and the taiwanese aborignial variety who came from Formosa

here is a example of the latter

Edited by Gwailo, 08 September 2009 - 01:45 PM.

[~Hsin_Hpyu_Shin~]

there r very small amount of population that has european genes...maybe 1-3% only

anyway there r 2 types of native faces in the Philippines....Malay/indo variety who migrated from Malaysia/Indonesia to the Philippines

and the taiwanese aborignial variety who came from Formosa

here is a example of the latter

apologies if i've not read up on this thoroughly but was there a backwards migration of "Malays" from Indonesia / malaysia to the Philipines at a later date . I thought the Austronesian migrations happened in the other direction ( ie from SE China / Taiwan -> Philipines -> Indonesia -> Malaysia / mainland SE Asia )

[Gwailo]

apologies if i've not read up on this thoroughly but was there a backwards migration of "Malays" from Indonesia / malaysia to the Philipines at a later date . I thought the Austronesian migrations happened in the other direction ( ie from SE China / Taiwan -> Philipines -> Indonesia -> Malaysia / mainland SE Asia )

actually it is believed that malays from malaysia and indonesia came way from yunnan, china through indochina...and finally reaching the malaysian peninsula, indonesia, and later on the philippines

there was an older wave of austronesians who reached the philippines from taiwan before the malay/indonesian migrants arrived in the islands

[2000pwc]

Football players (10 each)

Korean


Japanese


Japanese + Korean


noticeable differences between Korean and Japanese:

Korean- much more defined jawline, normal-smaller eyes, sharper face, thicker lips, thicker eyebrows.

Japanese- weaker jawline, normal eyes, very soft face, thinner lips, thinner eyebrows.

If you look at the Japaense+Korean image, I averaged 10 Japanese and 10 Korean faces to give Korean, Japanese average. You can see a smooth transition from a Korean (sharp face) type to a Japanese (soft face) type.

Edited by 2000pwc, 09 September 2009 - 07:09 AM.

[LongMa]

Football players (10 each)

Korean


Japanese


Japanese + Korean


noticeable differences between Korean and Japanese:

Korean- much more defined jawline, smaller ears, normal-smaller eyes, sharper face.

Japanese- weaker jawline, larger ears, normal-smaller eyes, very soft face.

If you look at the Japaense+Korean image, I averaged 10 Japanese and 10 Korean faces to give Korean, Japanese average. You can see a smooth transition from a Korean (sharp face) type to a Japanese (soft face) type.

The Korean one looks similar to mine, the Japanese one is very distorted, I'm not sure you mapped that well, definately not well enough to comment on facial features.

[2000pwc]

The Korean one looks similar to mine, the Japanese one is very distorted, I'm not sure you mapped that well, definately not well enough to comment on facial features.

How is it more distorted than the Korean one? I can't really see much of a difference in terms of distortion. ok, maybe it is a little bit more distorted than the Korean one, but you can still clearly see the face.

I tend to think Japanese people (average people) tend not to shave their beards/moustaches, hence giving them more of a unique look.

Koreans always shave because it's a common expectation. And in terms of body hair, Japanese are no different from Koreans.

Since they are athletes, they are a good representation of average people who have low BMI.



It's true that Japanese, on average, eat smaller portions, hence many people have low BMI. Koreans on the other hand eat large portions.

Edited by 2000pwc, 09 September 2009 - 07:30 AM.

[Gwailo]

can your guess what ethnicity she is