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#1 phoenix_bladen

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 02:13 PM

Hey guys do you think Chinese is a language or a dialect? I personally think it's a separate language because it's so diverse similar to Europe..... China is just like Europe linguistically..... i just want to hear your opinions on this...
I know politically Chinese ppl would object because this can be controversal .... especially when all Chinese believe in Unity..... anyways what do you think?

Remember unity in writing script does not mean the language is the same.... English and Vietnamese use the Latin script for writing but that does not mean they're related.....

Is Chinese a language or a family of languages?
Spoken Chinese comprises many regional and often mutually unintelligible variants. In the West, many people are familiar with the fact that the Romance languages all derive from Latin and so have many underlying features in common while being mutually unintelligible. The linguistic evolution of Chinese is similar, while the socio-political context is quite different.

In Europe, political fragmentation created independent states which are roughly the size of Chinese provinces. This created a political desire to create separate cultural and literary standards between nation-states and to standardize the language within a nation-state. In China, a single cultural and literary standard (Classical Chinese and later, Vernacular Chinese) continued to exist while at the same time spoken language between different cities and counties continued to diverge, much in the same manner European languages diverged from each other, as the result of the sheer scale of the country, and the obstruction of communication by mountains and geography.

As a case in point, mountainous South China displays more linguistic diversity than flat North China. There's even a saying in Chinese, ÄÏ´¬±±ñR (pinyin: n¨¢n chu¨¢n b¨§i m¨£), meaning "Boats in the South and horses in the North." The flat plains of the northern China allows one to cross with relative ease using a horse, but the dense vegetation and numerous mountains and rivers of the south prevented this. In southern China, the most efficient means of transportation was a boat. For instance, Wuzhou is a city that lies about 120 miles upstream from Guangzhou, the capital of the Guangdong province in the south. On the other hand, Taishan is only 60 miles southwest of Guangzhou, but several rivers must be crossed in order to get there. Because of this, the dialect spoken in Taishan, relative to the dialect spoken in Wuzhou, has actually diverged more from the Standard Cantonese spoken in Guangzhou (Ramsey, 1987).

This diversity in spoken forms and commonality in written form has created a linguistic context that is very different from that of Europe. For example, in Europe, the language of a nation-state was usually standardized to be similar to that of the capital, making it easy, for example, to classify a language as French or Spanish. This had the effect of sharpening linguistic differences. A farmer on one side of the border would start to model his speech after Paris while a farmer on the other side would model his speech after Madrid. Moreover, the written language would be modelled after the language in the capital, and the use of local speech or mixtures of local speech and the national standard would be considered substandard and erroneous. In China, this standardization did not happen.

More relevant to China's situation is that of India. Though India has historically not been as unified as China, parts of it speaking multiple languages have long been united in various states, and many of the languages have not until the last few decades been standardized through political centralization. Sanskrit long played a role as a common written language. In India, however, the status of the different descendant languages of Sanskrit as separate languages is not in question; 13 of them are official languages, and the borders of Indian states were even re-drawn several decades ago to conform to those of the languages.

Few linguists would seriously hold that Cantonese and Mandarin are the same language in the way they use the term, but for the popular classification of a speech variety as a language or dialect, linguistic considerations are often not as important as cultural or nationalistic ones. In self-description, Chinese people generally consider Chinese to be one single language, partly because of the common written language. In order to describe dialects, Chinese people typically use the speech of location, for example Beijing dialect (±±¾©Ô’/±±¾©»°) for the speech of Beijing or Shanghai dialect (ÉϺ£Ô’/ÉϺ£»°) for the speech of Shanghai. Often there is not even any awareness among laypeople that these various "dialects" are then categorized into "languages" based on mutual intelligibility, though in areas of greater linguistic diversity (such as the southeast) people do think of dialects as being grouped into categories like Wu, Hakka. So although it is true that many parts of north China are quite homogeneous in language, while in parts of south China, major cities can have dialects that are only marginally intelligible even to close neighbours, there is a tendency to regard all of these as "Chinese dialects" ¡ª equal subvariations under a single Chinese language. As with the concept of Chinese language itself, the divisions between different "dialects" are mostly geographical rather than based on linguistic distance. For example, Sichuan dialect is considered as being distinct from Beijing dialect in the same way that Cantonese is, despite the fact that linguistically Sichuan dialect and Beijing dialect are both considered Mandarin dialects by linguists while Cantonese is not.

Due to this self-perception of a single Chinese language by the majority of its speakers, some linguists respect this terminology, and use the word "language" for Chinese and "dialect" for Cantonese, but most follow the intelligibility requirement and consider Chinese to be a group of related languages, since these languages are not at all mutually intelligible, and show variation comparable to the Romance languages. As with many areas that have been linguistically diverse for a long time, whether the speech of a particular area of China should be considered a language in its own right or a dialect of another is not always clear, and many of the languages do not have sharp boundaries between them. The Ethnologue lists fourteen (http://www.ethnologu....asp?subid=1270), but the number varies between seven and seventeen depending on how strict the intelligibility criterion is.

The distinction between a single language and a language family has major political overtones, and the amount of emotion put into this issue arises from political implications. To some, describing Chinese as different languages implies that China should actually be considered several different nations, and challenges the notion that there is a single Han Chinese "race". For this reason, some Chinese are uncomfortable with the idea that Chinese is not a single language, as this perception might legitimize secessionist movements. Supporters of Taiwanese independence do tend to be strong promoters of Min- and Hakka-language education. Furthermore, for some, the implication that describing Chinese as multiple languages is more correct carries with it the implication that the notion of a single Chinese language and by implication a single Chinese state or nationality is backward, oppressive, artificial, and out of touch with reality.

However, the linkages between ethnicity, politics, and language can be complex. For example, many Wu, Min, Hakka, and Cantonese speakers would consider their own tongues to be separate spoken languages, and the Han Chinese race to be a single entity, do not consider these two positions to be contradictory; instead they consider the Han Chinese to be an entity that is, and has always been, characterized by great internal diversity. Moreover, the government of the People's Republic of China officially states that China is a multinational nation, and that the very term "Chinese" refers to a broader concept called Zhonghua minzu that incorporates groups that do not natively speak Chinese at all, such as Tibetans, Uighurs, and Mongols. (Those that do speak Chinese and are considered "ethnic Chinese" from an outsider point of view are called Han Chinese ¡ª this is seen as an ethnic and cultural concept, not a political one.) Similarly on Taiwan, one can find supporters of Chinese unification who are also interested in promoting local language, and supporters of Taiwan independence who have little interest in the topic. And in an analogy to the mainland Chinese idea of Zhonghua minzu, the Taiwanese identity also incorporates Taiwanese aborigines, who are not at all considered Han Chinese because they speak Austronesian languages, predate Han Chinese migration to Taiwan, and are culturally linked to other Austronesian-speaking peoples such as the Polynesians.

Source - http://en.wikipedia....hinese_language

Edited by Yun, 21 March 2005 - 10:13 PM.

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#2 Gubook Janggoon

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 06:48 PM

It really depends on how you define language...

Quiter personally I see Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian, and Rumanian to be dialects of Latin.....

But if all those are considered seperate languages, I don't see why the various Chinese dialects can't be either.
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#3 Kulong

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 07:01 PM

It really depends on how you define language...

Quiter personally I see Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian, and Rumanian to be dialects of Latin.....

But if all those are considered seperate languages, I don't see why the various Chinese dialects can't be either.

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Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian... etc., while heavily influenced by Latin, are not actually of the same language.

Prior to being conquered by the Roman Empire, various tribes in Europe already had their own spoken languages. These languages borrowed heavily from Latin and eventually adopted the Latin script, but that doesn't mean they are of the same origin.

Chinese dialects, on the other hand, are more or less of the same origin. They are more different from each other than say, the various "English dialects" (American, British, Australian... etc.) is because Chinese dialects have been isolated and developed on their own for thousands of years while the various English dialects have only been separated for mere two hundred years.

Also, if Chinese dialects are considered different languages then which one is the "original Chinese dialect"? I've heard some people argue that southern Chinese dialects were already spoken prior to the arrivals of Hans from the north. But then how do they explain the fact that southern Chinese dialects are closer related to classical spoken Chinese?
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#4 Zuo Zongtang

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 07:02 PM

Remember unity in writing script does not mean the language is the same.... English and Vietnamese use the Latin script for writing but that does not mean they're related.....


English and Vietnamese use Latin letters in their writing, correct, but Vietnamese words are very different from English word. On the other hand, Chinese dialects, although with different pronunciation, have exactly the same words.

For example, lets translate "Sky."

Mandarin:天
Cantonese:天
Shanghainese:天


English:Sky
Vietmanese:trời
French:ciel
Spanish:cielo
Latin:caelum
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#5 stupidumboy

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 08:04 PM

I am very curious of this ,

Assuming you are a Cantonese (born and raised in GZ) and you never ever learned or heard of Mandarin spoken,

If you meet a Chinese person who's from the north and speak Mandarin,
Can you understand mandarin ?

I do not know about other Latin languages

But About the relationship and similarity between Spanish and Italian ,I once heard from an Italian guy(living in NY and his parents immigrate from Italy)
that his parents were able to understand about 60 % of the Spanish Radio broadcastings.

By the way,Korea also had diffrent languages during the ancient three kingdom period. Koguryo,Baekjae and Shilla had diffrent languages but grammatical structure and many words were correspondent each other.
But to completely understand other kingdom langyages,they needed interpretors or learning other kingdom's languages.

I personally think language is the key factor to divide each ethnicity ,(therefore if one country is simply ethnically so caled homogenious nation-it has only one language spoken group )
but to form a nation is different -there are severals of multicultural nations in the world and that adds more diveirsity and better performance if the central government make a wise policy to make the people united and well-mixed .

#6 Gubook Janggoon

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 09:18 PM

Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian... etc., while heavily influenced by Latin, are not actually of the same language.

Prior to being conquered by the Roman Empire, various tribes in Europe already had their own spoken languages.  These languages borrowed heavily from Latin and eventually adopted the Latin script, but that doesn't mean they are of the same origin.

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Thanks for pointing that out. :)
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#7 hansioux

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:04 PM

French:ciel
Spanish:cielo
Latin:caelum

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Having the same written doesn't make it the same language.

On the other hand, having different spelling doesn't make it different languages either.

Look at the French, Spanish, and Latin. There is a connection. A root word. Simply because it's spelled instead of represented by a symbol, doesn't make it different languages.

I think it's just in Europe, they divid they languages in to finer catagories.
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#8 Kulong

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:16 PM

Look at the French, Spanish, and Latin.  There is a connection.  A root word.  Simply because it's spelled instead of represented by a symbol, doesn't make it different languages.

Yes many European language share "root words" but that's because they borrowed from the same source, Latin.

There are also many words in Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese that have the same origin because they all borrowed from Chinese. That doesn't make them the same languages.
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#9 lobster

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:44 PM

Also note that Portuguese, French, Spanish, Italian, etc., and Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese all have their non-Latin, non-Han, native words.

As for stupidumboy's question, I for one have this background. Mandarin first seemed incomprehensible to me. But since Mandarin is also the modern day written Chinese, once you have some knowledge in that, everything starts to click. That's my way of learning Mandarin - learn written Chinese first.

On the other hand, it would be hard for a pure Mandarin speaker to learn Cantonese. I think this is why Mandarn is chosen as the "national" language - it's more or less the norm of all dialects.

As a side note, I heard that the German language has dialects in similar fashion as Chinese. Not too sure.

#10 tianzhuwoye

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 10:48 PM

Portuguese, Spanish, French, Italian... etc., while heavily influenced by Latin, are not actually of the same language.

Prior to being conquered by the Roman Empire, various tribes in Europe already had their own spoken languages.  These languages borrowed heavily from Latin and eventually adopted the Latin script, but that doesn't mean they are of the same origin.

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Actually, these languages are usually understood to be rather direct ‘descendants’ of Latin, while the tribal borrowing situation you describe applies more to languages like English and Dutch, which is why a distinction is made between ‘Romance’ and ‘Germanic’ languages.

Also, the problem with the common ancestry approach here is that the going Indo-European theory connects, for example, Russian and Sanskrit- and few people are going to argue that these are dialects of each other. The thing about languages is that they change all the time so going back far enough in the past will open up a number of relationships that are no longer workable today. And of course, these ‘originals’ are long gone. How far back we have to go and how these relationships are defined will depend on the political motivations of the people defining them, who are free to come up with any terms they want since one of the few undisputable facts about all the world’s languages is that somebody made them up.

The writing systems a given language has eventually adopted are obviously completely irrelevant to this issue. You could read 左 and pronounce it ‘hidari,’ for example- in fact, there’s no real reason why some people shouldn’t be allowed to read it ‘left.’ There could at some point be a language where 天 is read ‘brap’ and means ‘d****t I chipped my tooth.’ Mongolian is currently written in Cyrillic, Yiddish is an offshoot of an older form of German that tends to be written in the ancient Hebrew script, just about all writing systems have a method for writing out ‘loan words’ (consider the rather systematic way words from other languages are transcribed in Korean, Turkish and increasingly, Mandarin- or even something like Hanyu Pinyin) and so on.

I’ve mentioned here before that a number of the Scandinavian languages, which we tend to view as separate languages since they carry official state status, are for the most part mutually intelligible but Germans from the far east of the nation will not be able to understand Germans from the extreme west, even if they’re all speaking ‘German.’ Again, languages are artificial, social constructs and aren’t natural phenomena, nor are they the kind of thing scientifically observable in laboratory conditions. Like all social inventions, they’re open to interpretation. If you’d like, try defining ‘capitalism’ or ‘China’ or ‘English’ in a manner that everybody’s going to be happy with. Most people will come up with whatever’s most convenient for their purposes.
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#11 Kulong

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:04 PM

As for stupidumboy's question, I for one have this background.  Mandarin first seemed incomprehensible to me.  But since Mandarin is also the modern day written Chinese, once you have some knowledge in that, everything starts to click.  That's my way of learning Mandarin - learn written Chinese first.

On the other hand, it would be hard for a pure Mandarin speaker to learn Cantonese.  I think this is why Mandarn is chosen as the "national" language - it's more or less the norm of all dialects.

I've tried to learn Cantonese before and being a native-Mandarin speaker, it was extremely easy for me. Grammar and vocabulary are nearly identical, in general, all I had to learn was the Cantonese pronounciation. Compare to all the other languages I've learned, namely English, Spanish, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, Cantonese was the easiest.
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#12 adoo

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:19 PM

...I've tried to learn Cantonese before and being a native-Mandarin speaker, it was extremely easy for me.  Grammar and vocabulary are nearly identical, in general, all I had to learn was the Cantonese pronounciation.  Compare to all the other languages I've learned, namely English, Spanish, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, Cantonese was the easiest.

several of my Taiwanese & Shanghainese friends echo the same sentiment.

#13 lobster

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:19 PM

I've tried to learn Cantonese before and being a native-Mandarin speaker, it was extremely easy for me.  Grammar and vocabulary are nearly identical, in general, all I had to learn was the Cantonese pronounciation.  Compare to all the other languages I've learned, namely English, Spanish, Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese, Cantonese was the easiest.

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Then again, Cantonese is just another flavour of Chinese. It's of course easier than another langauge for you.

Also, it may only be because you're extremely smart in learning Cantonese. :g:

EDIT: My girlfriend told me that she learned Cantonese quickly because she knows Hakka.

#14 lobster

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:30 PM

The writing systems a given language has eventually adopted are obviously completely irrelevant to this issue. You could read 左 and pronounce it ‘hidari,’ for example- in fact, there’s no real reason why some people shouldn’t be allowed to read it ‘left.’ There could at some point be a language where 天 is read ‘brap’ and means ‘d****t I chipped my tooth.’

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I agree with the pronounciation but disagree on the meaning.

Using Japanese as example again, true they use Han characters to represent native Japnese words, like the example you've given, but they always have the same or similar meaning as the Han character, at least as the time when they were imported. So a native Japanese word represented by the character 天 may pronounce totally non-Han but always means the something similar or the same, in Japanese.

Maybe I should say in most cases... as I don't really know Japanese too well.

#15 Kulong

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Posted 07 March 2005 - 11:33 PM

I agree with the pronounciation but disagree on the meaning.

Using Japanese as example again, true they use Han characters to represent native Japnese words, like the example you've given, but they always have the same or similar meaning as the Han character, at least as the time when they were imported.  So a native Japanese word represented by the character 天 may pronounce totally non-Han but always means the something similar or the same, in Japanese.

Maybe I should say in most cases... as I don't really know Japanese too well.

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Japanese words that are of Chinese origin have two pronounciations, the Chinese one and the Japanese one.

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To those of you who insist on calling the Chinese dialects, languages, please list reasons why so we have something solid to discuss.
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