82 replies to this topic

[phoenix_bladen]

The chinese languages are indeed languages and not dialects for the following reasons:

1. They are not intelligible to each other if one is hearing them for the first time.

2. Each of the main chinese languages have their own dialects which are more intelligible with each other and with common characteristics.

For example, "ay sai" for "can" is common to most of the "min" dialects.
"hai" for "yes" is common to most of the "cantonese" dialects.
But the chinese languages are not different unrelated languages, they are RELATED languages for the following reasons:

1. A large proportion of the sounds are derived from the same vocabulary but with slightly different pronounciation. For example, "fang" in mandarin, "fong" in cantonese, "hong" in hokkien.

2. It is much easier to learn another chinese language when one knows the chinese characters.

3. It has a similar grammatical structure based on tones, classifiers and  monosyllabic, subject-verb-noun order etc.
The chinese languages are related and are a branch of the sino-tibetan language family which is similar to the indo-european language family.

Sino-tibetan language family have 3 main branches:

1. Sino branch - cantonese, mandarin, hakka, hokkien, wu etc (compare to germanic branch)

2. Tibetan/burmese (compare to indo branch)

3. Tai/laos    (compare to latin branch) (adjectives come after the noun)
It can be argued that vietnamese may belong to tai branch.

Thanks Xng this is such a perfect way to put it to words.... this is excellent information and i totally agree that the Chinese variations are different languages.

[xng]

Thanks Xng this is such a perfect way to put it to words.... this is excellent information and i totally agree that the Chinese variations are different languages.

You're welcome ! To explain further the evolution of chinese languages which came from the same root ie. one language, here is an example of 2 common chinese languages.

Mandarin
----------

Mandarin is a simplification of the middle chinese languages. Just as the simplified chinese characters are a simplification of traditional characters.

The reason is that when the mongols and manchurian which are non-tonal languages conquered china, they must be overwhelmed by the difficulties in the many tones of sinitic languages. Ask any european speakers, what is the most difficult part to learn of spoken chinese languages, they are invariable the tones !

Therefore, being the ruling tribe at that time, they simplified the tones so that they are more distinguishable. One flat, one rising, one dropping and one both dropping and rising. In ancient chinese language, there can be different tones that are flat/rising/dropping but are of various frequencies (high, mid, low)

I can bet that the manchurian and mongol languages do not have the endings "p","k", "t" that cantonese, hokkien has. That is why those endings were also dropped due to laziness and difficulty of tongue for the mongol/manchu people. Since the mongol rule was shorter, I would say the biggest influence came from the manchus.


Cantonese
------------

Cantonese is most probably influenced by the 'bai yue' tribes people living in that area when emperor chin sent troops there during his reign. But since the 'bai yue' tribes were not the controlling dynasty as the mongols or manchu, their influence over the original language was not as drastic as mandarin. Therefore, cantonese still retains the 6 tones and the "p","k","t" sound that the original language has.

When you read the "tang" poems or "tong si yat bak sau", it will rhyme better in cantonese than mandarin.

[nishishei]

For example, "ay sai" for "can" is common to most of the "min" dialects.
"hai" for "yes" is common to most of the "cantonese" dialects.

In Shanghainese (a Wu dialect) "can" is leisei. Wu dialects and Min are quite related. The Shanghainese word for "yes" is ei (but it has no relationship with the Cantonese hai, because the Cantonese hai really is "to be"; while the Shanghainese "to be" is zi, lele, laehei, lekei, lelan).

[phoenix_bladen]

You're welcome ! To explain further the evolution of chinese languages which came from the same root ie. one language, here is an example of 2 common chinese languages.

Mandarin
----------

Mandarin is a simplification of the middle chinese languages. Just as the simplified chinese characters are a simplification of traditional characters.

The reason is that when the mongols and manchurian which are non-tonal languages conquered china, they must be overwhelmed by the difficulties in the many tones of sinitic languages. Ask any european speakers, what is the most difficult part to learn of spoken chinese languages, they are invariable the tones !

Therefore, being the ruling tribe at that time, they simplified the tones so that they are more distinguishable. One flat, one rising, one dropping and one both dropping and rising.  In ancient chinese language, there can be different tones that are flat/rising/dropping but are of various frequencies (high, mid, low)

I can bet that the manchurian and mongol languages do not have the endings "p","k", "t" that cantonese, hokkien has. That is why those endings were also dropped due to laziness and difficulty of tongue for the mongol/manchu people. Since the mongol rule was shorter, I would say the biggest influence came from the manchus.
Cantonese
------------

Cantonese is most probably influenced by the 'bai yue' tribes people living in that area when emperor chin sent troops there during his reign.  But since the 'bai yue' tribes were not the controlling dynasty as the mongols or manchu, their influence over the original language was not as drastic as mandarin. Therefore, cantonese still retains the 6 tones and the "p","k","t" sound that the original language has.

When you read the "tang" poems or "tong si yat bak sau", it will rhyme better in cantonese than mandarin.

Ah ic ... so that's what influencing a language means....

[wushijiao]

Inevitably, these discussions about languages in China come down to how one defines the word “language”. I think that if you take X regionalect/dialect/language/话 (whatever term you wish to use) you can only call it a “language” after there is a process of standardization in both the written and spoken form, there is an awareness of the people that they share their dialect with other people, and there is popularization and promotion of the language via the media.

Under this type of definition of “language”, Cantonese and Putonghua easily qualify as languages. From there it becomes more difficult to say. I have no idea how prominent non-Putonghua languages are in the media in Taiwan, but I assume that Taiwanese and Hakka would qualify as languages under this definition. However, I don’t think other commonly known dialects like Wu, Gan, Sichuanese…etc, would qualify as languages. Wu wouldn’t qualify because the government suppresses its media exposure and, it seems to me, common people aren’t aware of pan-Wu-ness. Under better conditions, Wu could become a language.

In any case, I think as long as Putonghua is maintained as the language of use in education, military and business settings, at this point, there is no danger to national unity by allowing dialects to gain status in the media.

Thoughts? Feel free to disagree.

[tianzhuwoye]

Inevitably, these discussions about languages in China come down to how one defines the word “language”.  I think that if you take X regionalect/dialect/language/话 (whatever term you wish to use) you can only call it a “language” after there is a process of standardization in both the written and spoken form, there is an awareness of the people that they share their dialect with other people, and there is popularization and promotion of the language via the media.

Agree with the fact that "language" is tricky to define, but as far as written form, isn't there a ridiculous percentage of the world's languages that just aren't written? Literacy is usually ruled out as far as criteria for language status: what were people speaking before paper, carving on tortoise shells, etc?

Also it's probably important to carry this out and add that human language is far, far older than either modern media or the political systems we have today that need to legitimize some languages and marginalize others.

This unfortunately endless debate has been relocated to this thread: http://www.chinahist...wtopic=4308&hl=

[wushijiao]

Sorry to prolong an already endless discussion. It must get a tad boring for the moderators. I just thought the “mutual intelligibility” requirement isn’t well-suited to Chinese, although it may be for European languages. I was just trying to think of a new definition of the term “language” that would fit the current situation of Chinese dialects.

When I posited a new way to think of language, I think the problem is that the word language already has many powerful meanings. So we could invent a new term. How about Quyzle? How many Quyzles does China have if you take X regionalect/dialect/language/话 (whatever term you wish to use) you can only call it a “Quyzles” after there is a process of standardization in both the written and spoken form, there is an awareness of the people that they share their dialect with other people, and there is popularization and promotion of the language via the media.

Also it's probably important to carry this out and add that human language is far, far older than either modern media or the political systems we have today that need to legitimize some languages and marginalize others.

I agree 100%. But at the same time, I think all dialects or languages that don't figure out a way to work with political sytems and the media will eventually die in the long-run.

[tianzhuwoye]

I think all dialects or languages that don't figure out a way to work with political sytems and the media will eventually die in the long-run.

Guess the question is which should take precedence, our languages or our leaders. Once you choose a side the definitions have all changed to fit whatever position you're going with and this is why the debate goes on. Still, my bad for making it sound like further views on this weren't welcome here

[nishishei]

Wu wouldn’t qualify because the government suppresses its media exposure and, it seems to me, common people aren’t aware of pan-Wu-ness.  Under better conditions, Wu could become a language. 

People are aware of the Suzhou-Shanghai-Ningbo triangle's mutual intelligibility though. And that is nearly 40 million people. Most people aren't aware that Wenzhou-hua is a Wu dialect, but everyone knows Suzhou-hua is Wu.

So where do you draw the line is basically the question. If Wu is not a single coherent language, then surely Shanghainese is a single language? The number of Shanghainese speakers alone outrank many European languages (such as Swedish and Magyar/Hungarian). Shanghainese is clearly the Wu juggernaut. Cantonese originally only referred to Guangzhou-hua (Canton = Guangzhou, not Guangdong), but now every Yue dialect speaker claims to be speaking Cantonese.

Nearly 2/3 of Zhejiang people can understand and speak (with an accent) Shanghainese, southern Zhejiang area has a bit more trouble.

[wushijiao]

Well, I said that because I have recently met some people who are from Hangzhou but claim that they can't understand Shanghaihua. Another guy said that Suzhouhua was very different from Shanghaihua. Both of these things really shocked me, to point that I thought they were lying to me. In any case, I think the point is that they didn't seem to make the connection that they speak Wu, a dialect shared by 70 million people, instead they just spoke X-city-hua.

I think if a dialect/language wants to avoid death, it seems critical that it fosters an awareness of itself among all its speakers, not at the academic level, but at the grassroots/laobaixing level. From there it can create media and political strategies to ward off extinction. I don't know how important the awareness factor is for Wu, but it certainly seems crucial for other dialects.

By the way, I didn't mean to insult Wu or any other languages.

Nearly 2/3 of Zhejiang people can understand and speak (with an accent) Shanghainese, southern Zhejiang area has a bit more trouble.

Wouldn't you argee that if Wu had a strong media base, with funny sit-coms and dramas and news broadcasts in Wu, it would help poularize itself. Then, I would guess, people in the fringes of the dialect zone, like southern Zhejiang or bits of Anhui, would easily understand other varieties of the dialect.

[nishishei]

Well, I said that because I have recently met some people who are from Hangzhou but claim that they can't understand Shanghaihua.  Another guy said that Suzhouhua was very different from Shanghaihua.  Both of these things really shocked me, to point that I thought they were lying to me.  In any case, I think the point is that they didn't seem to make the connection that they speak Wu, a dialect shared by 70 million people, instead they just spoke X-city-hua.

People who speak Hangzhou-hua do indeed have more trouble understanding Shanghaihua, because Hangzhou-hua is notoriously more mandarinized (being the Southern Song capital). They actually use "wo, ni, ta". Shanghainese speakers on the other hand can easily understand Hangzhou-hua with the help of Mandarin.

Suzhou-hua is about as very different from Shanghai-hua as British English is to American. Suzhou is just 40 miles away from Shanghai, in 50 years it might even be a suburb of Shanghai.

I think if a dialect/language wants to avoid death, it seems critical that it fosters an awareness of itself among all its speakers, not at the academic level, but at the grassroots/laobaixing level.  From there it can create media and political strategies to ward off extinction.  I don't know how important the awareness factor is for Wu, but it certainly seems crucial for other dialects.

I agree. Wu is especially problematic because Shanghainese has less perceived cultural weight (in contrast to Guangzhouhua/Cantonese in the Guangdong area), and a lot of other areas aren't willing to be led by Shanghainese but also don't see a better candidate than Shanghainese. The reality is that contemporary Suzhou-hua has zero influence on Wu dialects today, the bulk of Suzhou cultural activities and traditions have all been moved to Shanghai. The Suzhou dialect today is also very different from Old Suzhou-hua, and is no more "traditional" than Shanghainese. And other areas also fear that Shanghainese would overpower their local dialects, due to its population and economic advantage. No doubt, the bulk of commercial music and entertainment, if freely allowed by the government, would be in Shanghainese.

People don't realize just how intelligible the various Wu dialects really are, because their contact with other Wu dialects are minimal, as exchanges are now mostly done in Putonghua. They forgot that before Putonghua existed, the people in the Wu region communicated in their respective local dialects with each other without any problems. As you mentioned, the lack of Wu dialect programming, also provides less exposure to the various Wu dialects necessary to not only a pan-Wu identiy but also better listening comprehension of the various Wu forms. The main differences between Wu dialects are in the pitch values and so it is really just a matter of getting used to the feel and rhythm of the various Wu dialects. That Shanghainese is super-fast makes things a bit challenging for some.

By the way, I didn't mean to insult Wu or any other languages. 

Not at all. I completely understand you.

[hira]

The definition of language is an universal one. What's the point of changing it because it doesn't "suit chinese". Hey, China is not Mars, its a normal country inhabitated by humans which speak as everyone else. If you intend to distort objective facts because of a political agenda, that's different.

I see the contradiction in having a single national identity (Han) with several different languages. But well, maybe it's the identity thing that would have to be addressed. But claiming that all Han speak a single language called 漢語 is a hoax as big as claiming ethnic or genetic equality.

[qrasy]

You're welcome ! To explain further the evolution of chinese languages which came from the same root ie. one language, here is an example of 2 common chinese languages.

Mandarin
----------

Mandarin is a simplification of the middle chinese languages. Just as the simplified chinese characters are a simplification of traditional characters.

The reason is that when the mongols and manchurian which are non-tonal languages conquered china, they must be overwhelmed by the difficulties in the many tones of sinitic languages. Ask any european speakers, what is the most difficult part to learn of spoken chinese languages, they are invariable the tones !

Therefore, being the ruling tribe at that time, they simplified the tones so that they are more distinguishable. One flat, one rising, one dropping and one both dropping and rising.  In ancient chinese language, there can be different tones that are flat/rising/dropping but are of various frequencies (high, mid, low)

I can bet that the manchurian and mongol languages do not have the endings "p","k", "t" that cantonese, hokkien has. That is why those endings were also dropped due to laziness and difficulty of tongue for the mongol/manchu people. Since the mongol rule was shorter, I would say the biggest influence came from the manchus.
Cantonese
------------

Cantonese is most probably influenced by the 'bai yue' tribes people living in that area when emperor chin sent troops there during his reign.  But since the 'bai yue' tribes were not the controlling dynasty as the mongols or manchu, their influence over the original language was not as drastic as mandarin. Therefore, cantonese still retains the 6 tones and the "p","k","t" sound that the original language has.

When you read the "tang" poems or "tong si yat bak sau", it will rhyme better in cantonese than mandarin.

Mandarin don't have -p -t -k. But older dialects of Mandarin transformed them into -ʔ (glottal stop) first before it disappeared.
This version of old Mandarin still exists in my country, Indonesia.
For example: 一 is read [iʔ], 不 is [puʔ]

In Middle Chinese, there were 8 different tones.
At early age, each tone matched its name.
Ping 平 was real flat, Shang 上 was real rising, Qu 去 was real falling, and Ru 入 was glottalized.
Yin-Yang difference was high/low pitch distinction, which was related to voiced/voiceless initials.

In some non-Sinitic languages, Shang 上 and Ru 入 registers merged (Vietnamese, Tibetan) so they have 6 tones.
Tibetan preserves best tonal values. http://thor.prohosti...ist/burmese.htm
In some analyses it can be shown that tonal languages derived from non-tonal languages. (Old Chinese itself is considered non-tonal)

Baiyue languages have a very complete set of endings, more complete than South Chinese languages.
It seems that its possible that their number of endings decreased because of the influence of Chinese.

[hira]

"不 is [puʔ]"
what's 不 middle chinese pronunciation? /pu/ or /put/? or did it have both? I mean, sino-japanese has "fu", and that's supposed to be Tang era.

[nishishei]

"不 is [puʔ]"
what's 不 middle chinese pronunciation? /pu/ or /put/?  or did it have both? I mean, sino-japanese has "fu", and that's supposed to be Tang era.

Can be both pu or put.
Sino-Japanese is also fu and futsu, although fu is more often used.