97 replies to this topic

[MockTurtle]

I'm curious as to how ethnic minorities are perceived and treated in China. Will there suddenly be discrimination if one mentions that he/she is a Miao? Are minorities largely indifferent to their ethnicities in relation to their Chinese citizenships, or do they try to distinguish themselves from the Han? How strong are the efforts to preserve minority customs and languages? Are there degrees of discrimination or tolerance among the different minority groups, as in would a Han employer typically hire a Manchu over a Uighur, or would he try to hire to best qualified, regardless of ethnicity? Are intermarriages between ethnic groups frequent? Do minorities see traditional Han culture has their own? For example, if they saw an Inner Mongolian guzheng player win a Chinese traditional music competition, would most other Inner Mongolians be proud or irritated? What would the Han Chinese reaction be?


Also, I have noticed that the Chinese media likes to glorify the minorities somewhat, in culture programs and competitions such as the ones on CCTV. How accurate are these portrayals? I've noticed there are several differences between mainstream Chinese-Korean "traditional dancing" and the traditional dances seen in South Korea. Of course, there are several differences between Chinese-Koreans and South Koreans in general, but some things do seem to be a little "China-fied."

This video for example.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

The woman is singing a well-known Korean folk song in the North Korean style, in a very beautiful hanbok, but that's as Korean as it gets. The men dancing in the backdround, drumming on toy jang-gus (with their hands)... that's just silly.

There is a youtube user called zhouzhzh, who posts some interesting minority "Toast Songs." (as well as some CCTV performances, which are quite good) They all seem the display only the positive aspects of minority life, in fun-filled karaoke fashion.

Do the minorities support this kind of promotion?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I'm curious as to how ethnic minorities are perceived and treated in China. Will there suddenly be discrimination if one mentions that he/she is a Miao? Are minorities largely indifferent to their ethnicities in relation to their Chinese citizenships, or do they try to distinguish themselves from the Han? How strong are the efforts to preserve minority customs and languages? Are there degrees of discrimination or tolerance among the different minority groups, as in would a Han employer typically hire a Manchu over a Uighur, or would he try to hire to best qualified, regardless of ethnicity? Are intermarriages between ethnic groups frequent? Do minorities see traditional Han culture has their own? For example, if they saw an Inner Mongolian guzheng player win a Chinese traditional music competition, would most other Inner Mongolians be proud or irritated? What would the Han Chinese reaction be?


Also, I have noticed that the Chinese media likes to glorify the minorities somewhat, in culture programs and competitions such as the ones on CCTV. How accurate are these portrayals? I've noticed there are several differences between mainstream Chinese-Korean "traditional dancing" and the traditional dances seen in South Korea. Of course, there are several differences between Chinese-Koreans and South Koreans in general, but some things do seem to be a little "China-fied."

This video for example.
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

The woman is singing a well-known Korean folk song in the North Korean style, in a very beautiful hanbok, but that's as Korean as it gets. The men dancing in the backdround, drumming on toy jang-gus (with their hands)... that's just silly.

There is a youtube user called zhouzhzh, who posts some interesting minority "Toast Songs." (as well as some CCTV performances, which are quite good) They all seem the display only the positive aspects of minority life, in fun-filled karaoke fashion.

Do the minorities support this kind of promotion?

In China, people were educated and brought up under a more 'chinese nationalistic' education, whereby Chinese peoples were made up by 56 ethnic groups. That means to say China is a multi-ethnic nation. Inter-ethnic marriage do exist in China, but it's not known whether they are common.

Over the past few years, there had been a rise of han nationalism (esp. in the south China). These han nationalist were generally quite anti-Manchu.

But IMO, discrimination against ethnic minorities group were less common in China.

What China was more afraid of were the separatism movement in Xinjiang by some Uighur groups and also by Tibetan independence groups. Therefore, promotion of ethnic harmony was quite high in China to 'prevent sessesion', esp. when CCP tried to portray that they took great care of the ethnic minorities in China.

[manjuniyalma]

I am disgusted by the stupid anti-Manchu sentiment.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

No worries, if they go out of hand, these Han nationalists will just be grinded down by the government. They are just pawns of the CCP for strategic purposes. Besides, no one today can really tell the difference between Manchu and Han, and most Han nationalists are more discriminatary towards the ancient Manchus than the modern ones. I even known a person who is a Han nationalists who is 1/4 Manchu himself.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 03 November 2008 - 03:38 AM.

[Yizheng]

I have seen anti-Uighur and anti-Mongol attitudes from Han Chinese, stereotyped perceptions of a whole people as like, given to criminal tendencies or whatever, exactly the same as here in Russia towards Chechens and other North Caucasus peoples, or towards the Asian peoples of Siberia, (the perception is usually that the Caucasus peoples are criminals and terrorists, and the Siberian peoples are 'stupid').
Just my subjective opinion, but seems to me like so long as ethnic minorities are just song and dance ensembles and a bit of cultural stuff, musicians, poets etc, and easy to fit into the 'friendship of peoples' ideology it's all ok and quite harminious and you can put them on TV and all and create the surface illusion of a happy multiethnic society. On TV in China it all looks nice, but that's the image the state wants to project. Uighurs and Tibetans are a lot 'safer' when they just sing and dance. You just end up with whole cultures that get all the substance gradually sucked out of them until they're just a few folk ensemble trappings left, harmless and easily packaged into the state's overall vision.
Talking of the Manchu, as the last post mentioned them, seems like they've so much dissolved into the Han population, like taking Han surnames since the Qing fell, and keeping their heads down all that time, is there really anything much of the Manchu culture and language even still alive now, I mean really alive, among ordinary people, not just among some scholars and that.
I wonder too, if you are Han and live in Xinjiang or Inner Mongolia or Tibet, how likely are you to learn also the language and culture of that region? Is a Han in Xinjiang likely to speak Uighur, say?

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Just my subjective opinion, but seems to me like so long as ethnic minorities are just song and dance ensembles and a bit of cultural stuff, musicians, poets etc, and easy to fit into the 'friendship of peoples' ideology it's all ok and quite harminious and you can put them on TV and all and create the surface illusion of a happy multiethnic society. On TV in China it all looks nice, but that's the image the state wants to project. Uighurs and Tibetans are a lot 'safer' when they just sing and dance. You just end up with whole cultures that get all the substance gradually sucked out of them until they're just a few folk ensemble trappings left, harmless and easily packaged into the state's overall vision.

I don't think this pertains only to Minorities. Han culture has been generalized as well, things such as the various martial arts and fighting Tai Chi are now unified into Wushu and exercise practices. Folk music has been commercialized into "Ming ge". The CCP tries to make everything simple and pragmatic when they just aren't that simple.

Talking of the Manchu, as the last post mentioned them, seems like they've so much dissolved into the Han population, like taking Han surnames since the Qing fell, and keeping their heads down all that time, is there really anything much of the Manchu culture and language even still alive now, I mean really alive, among ordinary people, not just among some scholars and that.

The Manchus has been taking Han surnames since the beginning of Qing, not after it fell. Even by the 19th century, most Manchus living in China has the Beijing accent and forgot how to speak Manchu. During late Qing, there has been many cases of Manchu garrisons in Canton and Fujian where they only distinction between them and the locals was that they spoke Mandarin in the Beijing accent(not Manchu).

[manjuniyalma]

Talking of the Manchu, as the last post mentioned them, seems like they've so much dissolved into the Han population, like taking Han surnames since the Qing fell, and keeping their heads down all that time, is there really anything much of the Manchu culture and language even still alive now, I mean really alive, among ordinary people, not just among some scholars and that.
I wonder too, if you are Han and live in Xinjiang or Inner Mongolia or Tibet, how likely are you to learn also the language and culture of that region? Is a Han in Xinjiang likely to speak Uighur, say?

Nowadays Manchu is spoken only by a handful elderly people in a small village called Sanjiazi(三家子), in Fuyu County of Heilongjiang Province.
However, there are Sibe people in Xinjiang still speaking their own language, which is considered a dialect of Manchu by many scholars. In fact, Roth Li from Hawaii University called the Sibe language "Modern Manchu". The Sibes have newspaper printed in written form Sibe (virtually the same as Manchu), TV news broadcasted in a mix of colloquial and written form Sibe. I have only studied Manchu, but I can understand Sibe TV news almost 100%.
Here is a link of their newscast:
http://www.cxgbds.co...E...&ctxid=2286
and more on Youtube:

Edited by manjuniyalma, 04 November 2008 - 01:37 AM.

[Yizheng]

Thanks for those interesting links, Manjuniyalma.
I had heard of the Sibe people and that their language was like Manchu and they kept it alive, but I thought it would maybe have died out too by now (I know how it is for indigenous peoples in Siberia, it's really hard to find younger people who still know their language, it's usually just old people now, and I thought it's maybe a similar situation with the Sibe).
I wonder if a revival of Manchu language could be possible, I mean, if younger people start to take an interest in their heritage and identity. Where can you study Manchu these days?

[rookie]

harmony is above everything, in this forum there is always a handfull of people discriminate minority ethnicities, this strongly annoy me, i can say this, now china there is no pure han, all are offspring of inter marriage, although some are han as registered, but genetically there is not han, some handfull of people often hold this wrong attitude, really annoy, me, we cannot judge people by it's race or wealth, why china is unified, because the war is too often ,when country attacked each other, so being one country is most helpful solution to solve this problem, and we are all yellow, our hair is black, why accusing each other.
It's said before westerner invading us, the chinese who have be attack each other, finally realize actually it is the westerner is real foriegner, before that, we have been keeping attack each other, the inside people. I am not saying that we should confront westerner,
but just facing the mirror, the facial characteristics are same, the skin colour is same,the hair is same, please do not hold this wrong position.
i haven't heard any northern chinese talking about hanfu, or loyalty of ming dynasty, only some southerner, we think they are descendent of han of Ming dynasty, this cannot be more rediculous, even some of the han people flee to south, they are still the offspring of inter marriage between han and the native people.
And my parent is from shandong, i am from jilin province, i don't believe my mother who hold shandong dialect, is as they said ,not the pure han people. Anyway i am apathy to han or not.
There is no genetically superiority of han, though i am han too. So it could not be more rediculous for people hold this position, -- han is more superior ,therefore they are superior.They are no more ture chinese.Or hold chinese culture. Especiall the "Andy lau", i feel his post is extremely irritating, and rediculous.

Edited by rookie, 08 December 2008 - 01:14 AM.

[LongMa]

I have seen anti-Uighur and anti-Mongol attitudes from Han Chinese, stereotyped perceptions of a whole people as like, given to criminal tendencies or whatever, exactly the same as here in Russia towards Chechens and other North Caucasus peoples, or towards the Asian peoples of Siberia, (the perception is usually that the Caucasus peoples are criminals and terrorists, and the Siberian peoples are 'stupid').
Just my subjective opinion, but seems to me like so long as ethnic minorities are just song and dance ensembles and a bit of cultural stuff, musicians, poets etc, and easy to fit into the 'friendship of peoples' ideology it's all ok and quite harminious and you can put them on TV and all and create the surface illusion of a happy multiethnic society. On TV in China it all looks nice, but that's the image the state wants to project. Uighurs and Tibetans are a lot 'safer' when they just sing and dance. You just end up with whole cultures that get all the substance gradually sucked out of them until they're just a few folk ensemble trappings left, harmless and easily packaged into the state's overall vision.

This is what I've observed in China as well. I especially heard some very nasty discriminatory language toward Uighurs, when I lived in Shanghai, at that time there were 3 Uighurs at my school, one I was good friends with. I saw how he was often treated. Then again in Shanghai, he was often assumed to be a foreigner, due to his appearance and his accented Mandarin.

I have to agree with Yizheng, I know a Yao woman in the U.S...she is quite integrated with the Han around her. I knew a Chinese-Korean woman in Shanghai, come to think of it.

I think if the minorities don't look or act significantly different or are not seen as a major political problem (which is often translated into anti-Chinese, when it is usually not anti, but just pro-) there is little conflict. When minority groups are seen as "a problem" they are often treated poorly.

Some of this I think is prejudice, some is good old fashioned Confucianism (highest nail gets hammered down, tallest blade of grass gets cut) and so it can lead to prejudice.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

This is what I've observed in China as well. I especially heard some very nasty discriminatory language toward Uighurs, when I lived in Shanghai, at that time there were 3 Uighurs at my school, one I was good friends with. I saw how he was often treated. Then again in Shanghai, he was often assumed to be a foreigner, due to his appearance and his accented Mandarin.

If you been to Xinjiang, you'll see the opposite frequently. Also, what the Chinese have is more in line with anti-separatism than blatant racism in the case of the US. Chinese affirmative actions are also far stronger than those taken in the US. Many Chinese affirmative actions could even be deemed racist. For example in Xinjiang, the authorities purposely tell the Hans to avoid confrontation with the Uighurs and yield to them, even in fights, the Uighurs could often get away with lighter punishments because the government doesn't want trouble. Such a strong anti-majority policy could only be imposed by an authoritarian regime like that of the PRC. But in many ways it does protect the minority from the ignorant and discriminatory masses. But on the other hand, it could be viewed as a severe violation of individual rights and an unfair legal treatment of individuals in the majority group.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 09 December 2008 - 07:04 AM.

[LongMa]

If you been to Xinjiang, you'll see the opposite frequently. Also, what the Chinese have is more in line with anti-separatism than blatant racism in the case of the US. Chinese affirmative actions are also far stronger than those taken in the US. Many Chinese affirmative actions could even be deemed racist. For example in Xinjiang, the authorities purposely tell the Hans to avoid confrontation with the Uighurs and yield to them, even in fights, the Uighurs could often get away with lighter punishments because the government doesn't want trouble. Such a strong anti-majority policy could only be imposed by an authoritarian regime like that of the PRC. But in many ways it does protect the minority from the ignorant and discriminatory masses. But on the other hand, it could be viewed as a severe violation of individual rights and an unfair legal treatment of individuals in the majority group.

Wow...I was not aware of this. That is interesting. Yes I agree...the government wants to pacify the locals with these benefits. This would not be legal in America, you are definately right.

[rookie]

Some of this I think is prejudice, some is good old fashioned Confucianism (highest nail gets hammered down, tallest blade of grass gets cut) and so it can lead to prejudice.

you can not blame confucianism, here, i think shanghaiese is the area least infuluenced by confucianism, i believe they believe more taoism, which turn them to be selfish and egoistic, there is a saying, about shanghaiese, they think the non-shanghaiese are all peasant from countryside.
excerpt of some confucius teaching
和而不同，
有朋自远方来不亦乐乎。

Edited by rookie, 11 December 2008 - 12:40 AM.

[rookie]

If you been to Xinjiang, you'll see the opposite frequently. Also, what the Chinese have is more in line with anti-separatism than blatant racism in the case of the US. Chinese affirmative actions are also far stronger than those taken in the US. Many Chinese affirmative actions could even be deemed racist. For example in Xinjiang, the authorities purposely tell the Hans to avoid confrontation with the Uighurs and yield to them, even in fights, the Uighurs could often get away with lighter punishments because the government doesn't want trouble. Such a strong anti-majority policy could only be imposed by an authoritarian regime like that of the PRC. But in many ways it does protect the minority from the ignorant and discriminatory masses. But on the other hand, it could be viewed as a severe violation of individual rights and an unfair legal treatment of individuals in the majority group.

i think you must not be familiar with chinese policy, chinese take a conservative approach toward inter ethnic policy, in fact not only ethnic policy, but also policy dealing between different region, such as, the people from zhejiang and jiangsu province are talented, but still the number of people enrolled into the government is limited, it's balancing, chinese government treat every province equally, at least it seems to be,
ethnic issue is very sensitive, it's very understandable, that the government take a lighter punishment on minority ethnicity, just like chinese people, when his kids have fighting against other kid, she tend to blame his own kids first and harder, this habit is embedded in chinese culture, i guess this is infuluenced by confucius.
China is very different with US, if everyone is to concerned about it's own right, or right about it's own ethnicity, i guess china have been dissolved into many parts long time ago

[changsham]

Prejudice and discrimination is a black mark on everyones heart and is universal to all. I once had a revealing conversation with a Naxi woman who showed great contempt for the richer Han who supposedly discriminated against the Naxi who lived in her district and when the conversation turned to the very poor Yi people who also lived nearby she spoke about them with the same discriminatory venom that she was accusing the Han of dishing out to her people.


I come from Italy where regional prejudices are very strong even from village to village. Because I come from the North I get a lot of heat from Southerners which are the dominant Italian grouping in Australia so I am an easy target for jibes being in the minority at most Italian gatherings.

Southeners often bait me in a phony good natured way by calling me a "German" or some other disguised jibe.

My response in kind is to call them "Arabs" or something not too direct. Of course we are neither but deflect our true feelings by associating each other with foreigners instead of the more dangerous and confrontational derogatory jibes honed over centuries between ourselves. Northerners traditionaly had tensions with Germans and Southerners had tensions with Arabs but we avoid the much bigger tensions between ourselves at least in public.


The reality is we are all tarred with the same brush and we have to constantly fight against our baser instincts when it comes to prejudice and discrimination at all levels of society, culture, religion, nationality and race. Unfortunatly it is too easy to give in.

Edited by changsham, 11 December 2008 - 01:51 AM.