21 replies to this topic

[RollingWave]

In chinese history, most battles were not recorded in details by historians, mainly because a. it was often written a long time after it had actually happened or b. because the writters were not military men. even when there were descriptions, it is often hard to understand due to the tendency to write brief in more traditional chinese. and perhaps also because we lack the more basic knowledge that the original writters expect his reader to know without telling.

So let's try to see some of these battle examples, and try to piece out how it really went, to give us a better understanding of the overall picture of Chinese military history.

I'll start with one battle:
The battle of Jie Qiao 界橋 (border bridge), between Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao. people who read Romance of the 3 kingdoms might remember this battle as the first appearance of Zhao Yun, however according to Ho Han Shu:

《後漢書 袁紹傳》:
「....瓚兵三萬，列為方陳，分突騎萬匹，翼軍左右，其鋒甚銳。紹先令麴義
  領精兵八百，強弩千張，以為前登。瓚輕其兵少，縱騎騰之，義兵伏楯下，一
  時同發，瓚軍大敗，斬其所置冀州刺史嚴綱，獲甲首千餘級。」

Literal English translation as best as I can (matching paragraph and words so don't complain about grammar):

"Late Han Book, Yuan Shao biography"

" Zan (Gongsun Zan) man 30 thousand, lined up in square formation, separate calvary over 10 thousand horse, on the wings of the army, its edge (moral probably) very sharp. Shao (Yuan Shao) first orders Qu Yi, leading 800 elite troops, with 1000 crossbowmen, to move foward as a vanguard. Zan took lightly of the small numbers. Sets loose calvary to charge them. Yi (Qu Yi) orders his men to crouch behind their pavises, all loose at the same time (crossbows), Zan's army suffers terrible defeat, killed Zan's Ji Zhou (Ji province) governor Yan Gang, gained armor and heads over 1000. "

The same battle in San Gou Zi.

《三國誌 袁紹傳 引英雄記注》:
「紹自往征瓚，合戰于界橋南二十里。瓚步兵三萬餘人為方陳，騎為兩翼，左右
    各五千餘匹，白馬義從為中堅，亦分作兩校，左射右，右射左，旌旗鎧甲，光
   照天地。紹令麴義以八百兵為先登，彊弩千張夾承之，紹自以步兵數萬結陳于
  後。義久在涼州，曉習羌鬥，兵皆驍銳。瓚見其兵少，便放騎欲陵蹈之。義兵
  皆伏楯下不動，未至數十步，乃同時俱起，揚塵大叫，直前衝突，彊弩雷發，
  所中必倒，臨陳斬瓚所署冀州刺史嚴綱甲首千餘級。瓚軍敗績，步騎奔走，不
  復還營。」

"San Guo Zhi, Yuan Shao biography, appended quote from The Book of Heroes (now lost)"
"Shao himself leads his army against Zan, met and battled 20 li south of Border Bridge. Zan's infantry more than 30,000 lined up in square formation, with cavalry on their wings, more than 5,000 on either side. with the white horse companions in the middle. also split into two regiments, left can shoot right, right can shoot left. their flags and armor lit up the sky and earth. Shao orders Qu Yi leading 800 infantry as vanguard. Spaced among them were 1000 crossbowmen. Shao himself leads several tens of thousands of infantry at the back. Yi (Qu Yi) had been at Liangzhou (Liang province, northwestern province around modern day Gansu) and learned the ways of fighting from the Qiang (ethnic minority in that area), all his men are elite. Zan sees the small advancement. and lets loose his calvary to rout them. Yi's men all crouched behind their pavises and didn't move. When the cavalry was only a few tens of paces away, all got up at the same time, upping dust and shouting loud, charged foward, crossbows went loose like lighting. All hit were felled, killed Zan's Ji province governor Yan Gang and heads and armor of over a thousand others. Zan's army was defeated, infantry and cavalry fled, didn't return to camp"


Now my translation is probably prone to errors as such traditional writting interpetations often are hard to understand clearly...

But if this understanding is correct in general, the battle lined up was probably something like this.

H=horsemen I = infantry C=crossbowmen


Gong Sun Zan's Army:

HHHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHHH
HHHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHHH
HHHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHHH
(5000+ horsemen on each wing 30,000 + infantry in the center, along with Gongsun Zan and his white horse companions)




Yuan Shao's army

IIIIIIIIIIIIIII= 800 men of Ju YI

HHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHH
HHH CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC HHH
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

(unknown number of cavalry on the wing but presume to be less than Gon Sun's Sevearl 10 thousand probably around 2-3 lead by Yuan Shao With several thousand crossbowmen)


I would guess from logic Qu Yi's men would probably be spaced with enough distances so that Gongsun Zan would have confidence to charge but still within crossbow range.

The 800 men was obviously a bait to lure Gongsun Zan into attacking, and he took the bait presuming that his calvary would easily overrun the small band and if Yuan's army gets shaken he could follow through the charge and win the whole battle. if not he could still pull them back safely... so it became like this.


Gongsun army:

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
HHHH HHHH
HHHH HHHH
HHHH HHHH
Yuan army
IIIIIIIIIIII = 800 men

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
(crossbowmen now ran up front with their crossbows already cocked)
HHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHH
HHH IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII HHH


At close range with a straight line of shot, the front of the cavalry charge met a nasty end in rain of crossbow bolts. breaking the momentum, the 800 men now rose up and charged loudly at the confused remaining calvary. Yuan Shao at this time probably ordered he's main army foward too, in the cover of the routing calvary they charged Gongsun Zan's army, now without enough cavalry to cover it's flanks and still confused to how 10,000 calvary could be routed by 800 men.

I am unsure of this line though "臨陳斬瓚所署冀州刺史嚴綱甲首千餘級。瓚軍敗績，步騎奔走，不復還營" Now the part of Yang Gang being killed has no question, but 甲首千餘級, could be translated to "over thousand armored heads" or "captured armor and heads combine over 1000."

But more importantly I quesiton the later description. it says that Gongsun Zan's army fled and did not return to camp, however if that was the case then only having around 1000+ armor in a army around 40-50 thousand and heads captured is a very small number if Zan's army totally collasped. while we know for sure that Gongsun Zan still lived and would remain a force to be reckon with for several years after, which makes the part about he's army routing and not returning questionable.

IIRC, although Gongsun Zan and Yuan Shao both fought the yellow turban rebellion and that Yuan was from one of the greatest aristocratic familes of the Han, Gongsun Zan had been for years prior to the yellow turban fighting against the other nomadic peoples in the north, his troops were very experienced and were considered an elite regiment of the Han army. from the discription we could also guess that Yuan's army was most likely smaller than Gongsun's at this battle.

Gongsun Zan obviously used a very conventional tactic with infantry in the middle and horsemen in the wing, Yuan was probably much the same but lured Gongsun to charge first with the 800 men advance and made him pay by secretly readying crossbows in the back (one of the advantages of crossbows... can be cocked and hidden until the moment comes and still release with full force and great accuratcy... much harder to do with bows)

I am speculating that Gon Sun Zan's army probably retreated in order and not fled the field completely judging from the relatively low number of captured heads and armor. if so that would mean his army really was quite experienced and discplined.


Comments and more inputs would be appriciated

Edit : errr why can't I line up my formation's properly??? it's all messed up and not the way i typed them, seem to went weird after I tried to add colors... can someone tell me how to fix it ??

Edited by Yun, 09 March 2005 - 05:13 AM.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Great contribution..Rollingwave..I enjoy the article

[Yun]

I've done some editing to the translation, but my editing also modifies Rollingwave's interpretation a bit. It appears that Qu Yi actually had 800 elite infantry and 1,000 heavy crossbows in his vanguard force. When Gongsun Zan's 10,000 cavalry charged them, Qu Yi first had his troops crouch down behind their pavises (large shields for crossbowmen, held up by infantrymen while the crossbowmen draw and shoot) until the cavalry were only several tens of paces away, to lure the cavalry to approach within close range. Then the crossbowmen rose and loosed their bolts together, and the front lines of the Gongsun cavalry were falling like flies. This so startled the cavalry that they broke and fled - however, only about 1,000 of the cavalry had actually been killed, because one volley by the crossbowmen was 1,000 bolts. Some others would have been killed by the 800 elite infantry while retreating, thus bringing the number of dead to over 1,000.

This is a classic example of crossbows defeating cavalry, and Yuan Shao thus effectively negated the advantage of Gongsun Zan in having cavalry while Yuan only had infantry. The true hero of this battle is Qu Yi, who in the RTK novel only appears as a strong general to be killed by Zhao Yun. I think the statement that Qu Yi knew the Qiang style of fighting does not refer to the crossbows (because the Qiang did not use this), but possibly to the use of extra long spears against cavalry, which the Qiang under Ma Chao were later known for. In that case, his elite infantry may have been armed with long spears which they laid down while holding up the pavises for the crossbowmen.

I've heard of Gongsun Zan's elite white-horse companion cavalry, but this is the first actual record I have read of them. It looks like they were elite horse-archers, with those on the right of the formation shooting to the left and those on the left shooting to the right to create a killing zone in the middle.

Thanks for raising this battle example, Rollingwave - I was not aware of it and have learned much from it.

[RollingWave]

The infantry formation of 1800 was also what others suggested in the my disscussion on the Taiwan BBS, I suppose from the interpetation of.
"領精兵八百，強弩千張，以為前登。" seem to suggest this... however I kind of see some logic problem. if it did advanced in such way.
Infantry= I Crossbowmen = C
CCCC IIIIIII CCCC
CCCC IIIIIII CCCC

Now my question in terms of realistic concern is...
1. in such a situation surely it would be quiet obvious to Gon Sun Zan that these were crossbowmen... since their was no other meantion of deception. if he can see that they are crossbowmen would he really order a charge? that would be quiet a amazing move of stupidity for a famous late han general.

2. in this case the 800 infantry would be the protector for the crossbowmen instead of simple bait, how would you protect crossbowmen more numerous than you from a calvary charge 10 times your number? or were they simply carrying big shields ahead of them? something like

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIi
CCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCC
But if this was the case it would be hard to loose all ur crossbows at once wouldn't it? and it might mean that the infantries were spaced more loosly apart, which is not wise against incomming cav charge... and again still the same problem, wouldn't it be quiet obvious you are cocking up something in the back?

From this though:
"紹令麴義以八百兵為先登，彊弩千張夾承之，紹自以步兵數萬結陳于
後。"
This description seems very vague on where the crossbowmens were... 夾承之 would mean carried hidden If i understand correctly.

of course, the first passage from Ho Han Shu should be considered the more reliable of the two recording as it was dated earlier.

3. so what Yun is suggesting is that Gong Sun Zan retreated upon seeing he's calvary routed.. which was why they took so few losses... but if this was case, why does it sa "瓚軍大敗，斬其所置冀州刺史嚴綱" this passage suggest that Zan suffered a terrible defeate, and Yian Gon who was one of he's important general died too, unless Yian Gon was charging with the calvary (unlikely) why would he be killed if Yuan Shao let Gon Sun Zan retreat in good order?

Also Yuan Shaos army probably had some calvary too, though not as numerous or experienced as Gon Sun Zan who was called the white horse general. from a later accounts of Guan Do Yuan Shao had over 20 thousand calvary by then... of course it may be accounted to the fact that he abosorbed Gon Sun Zan's forces by then.

The above was really why i came up with my theory that the 800 men were probably bait send out ahead while the crossbowmen were acturally hidden in the main line, though I can see why the other conclusion could be reached...

Edit: oh i see where i'm getting it wrong I think "義兵伏楯下" i thought it simply meant they kneeled down or laid down on the ground, but 楯 should be pavise shields, so the translation should be hidden behind the pavise shield instead of lieing downon the ground .... i suppose that would make sense.. still if this was the case then it goes to show that Gon Sun Zan was quiet overconfident in he's cavalry's ability (though not without reason...)

[thirdgumi]

I think Gongsun Zan's backbone force was his cavalry, with his cavalry routing, his infantry couldn't do much, so all his forces routed. And I think Yuan Shao played safe, the didn't ordered an all out chase with his cavalry (if he had any significant number of them), so that explained few casualties among Gongsun Zan's army.

Yuan Shao's 800 infantry + 1000 crossbow could be alined like this:

IIIIIIIIII (800 troops)
CCCCC (500 troops)
CCCCC (500 troops)
In the moment of losing bolts, the infantry crouched behind the pavises, the first row of crossbow also crouched and shoot bolts over the shouder of the infantry, and the 2nd line of crossbow all stood up and shoot over the heads of the front ranks.

[RollingWave]

From what i'm gathering...
Jieqiao was a series of battles. this was the first major confrontation. by not returning to camp, it mean that Gongsun Zan's army retreated from its camp in this area, afterwards he kept retreating while Qu Yi led the chase.

Qu Yi defeated Gongsun Zan's forces that was covering their retreat, and stormed and took Gongsun Zan's main camp by surprise.

Yuan's main army now lagging quite a ways behind, heard of the news and let down their guard. The regrouping Gongsun army cought and surronded them, but met fierce resistances while Qu Yi's army came around their back and again defeated them.

Edited by Yun, 10 March 2005 - 07:34 AM.

[Zuo Zongtang]

What about this kind of a formation?

IIIIIIII
III C III
III CC III
II CCCC II
CCCCCCC(maybe?)

The Crossbows are hidden inside of the 800 elite troops. Thus when the calvalry charges:

HHHHHHHHHH

IIIIIIIII

They see infantry, who in turn drop down, to revale:

HHHHHHHHHH

IIIIIIIII
IICCCII

Crossbowmen. The flanks are protected and add a sense of disguse.

[RollingWave]

Yes, that may be the case Zuo, the difficulty is that there were only 800 infantry, while they must cover up 1000 crossbowmen.

The participants in the Chinese BBS on this think that it may be because Gongsun Zan had been fighting all his life against nomads in the north, and thus

a. became way too confident in his experienced cavalry corps, while
b. they were not experienced in fighting Chinese infantry armies.

[Yun: Pardon my ignorance - what's a BBS?]

[RollingWave]

I will try to piece out the battle of Bian Jing in the reign era of Jingkang - the famous disaster that lead to the end of northern Song dynasty. as best as i could.

source mostly quoted from 固若金湯, which is a academic site in Taiwan on siege techniques and defenses during the Song. http://www2.tku.edu.tw/~tahx/class/science/siege/)

There were two major battles fought between the Song and Jin during the year 1126 a.d for the capital of the Song, Bian Jing.

I will quote what i find more relevant on the actual battle. though the site also offers much detail on the people in charge and their preparation etc..

The first Jin offensive.

是夕（癸酉），金人攻西水門（一說宣澤門），以小船數十之順汴流相繼而下，余（李綱）臨域捍禦，募敢死士二千人列布於城下，待船至即以長鉤搭就岸投石碎之。又於中流安頓叉木及運蔡京家假山石疊門道間，就水中斬獲百餘人，自初夜防守至旦，始保無虞。

傳言錄is the diary and memorer of Lee Gong I think.
Literal translation, correct me if I made mistakes.
"On the 7th day (of the first month in the lunar calendar), the Jin people attacked the west water gate, on several 10s of small boats floating down the Bian river, myself (Li Gang) was on the wall myself to defend, gathers up 2000 volunteer who is willingto risk death and position them outside the walls, as soon as the boat arrive crushed them with long hooks and stones thrown from the shore. also placed spiked wood and stones from the home of Cai Jing (the infamous prime minister that led northern Song to this predicatament, who has now been dismissed) in the river and waterways, killed several hundred in the river, fought from early night till dawn, until all was well.

The following major Jin offensive

乙亥（九日），李綱方入對，外報虜攻通天景陽門一帶甚急，上命綱督將士捍禦，綱乞禁衛班直善射者千人以從。虜方渡濠，以雲梯攻城，班直乘城射之，皆應弦而倒。將士無不賈勇，近者以手砲、檑木擊之，遠者以神臂弓射之，又遠者以床子弩、坐砲及之，而金虜有乘筏渡濠而溺者，有登梯而墜者，有中矢石而踣者甚眾。又募壯士數百人縋城而下燒雲梯數十座，斬獲酋首數十級。虜又攻陳橋、封邱、衛州等門……綱登城督戰……自卯至未申間殺賊凡數千乃退，五泰軍節度使何灌死之。

長篇is 續資治通鑑長編 , the contiuation of 資治通鑑, the work of Sima Guang, which is kinda like Shiji.
Literal translation.
"The 9th, Li Gang had just arrived, outside reports are that barbarians are fiercely attacking the Jingyang Gate, the emperor orders Li Gang to hurry there and command the defenses, Gang begs the emperor to let 1,000 imperial guards who were good at archery follow him. The barbarians had just crossed the Moat, and were putting up cloud ladders (mobile siege ladders) and attacking the walls.

The 1,000 imperial guards came onto the walls and loosed their arrows, and each shot killed one of the barbarians. All commanders and soliders were brave, the ones up close attacked with small single-man trebuchets and leimu 擂木 (big rolling logs thrown down at climbing enemies) those further away shot with divine-armed crossbows (shenbi nu), those even further used ballistas and trebuchets, and the Jin barbarians either drowned while crossing the Moat, or fell while climbing the ladders, those hit by bolts and stones were numerous. Then Li Gang gathered several hundred volunteers, lowered them down the walls and burned several tens of cloud ladders. killed several tens of enemy chieftans.

the Barbarians then attacked several other gates such as Chenqiao 陳橋、Fengqiu 封邱, and Weizhou 衛州. Li Gang commanded the defense from the walls, from 5-7am to 3-4pm, and killed several thousand enemies and they retreated. the Military Governor of the Wutai Army 五泰軍節度使, He Guang was killed.

After this the attack eased up but the siege continued. with both sides trying to seek negotiations while sporadic fighting continued.

壬寅（《三朝北盟會編》記此日為二月六日）……是夕李綱宿咸豐門，以金人進兵門外治攻具故也。先是，蔡懋號令將士，金人近城不得輒施，故有引砲及床子弩者皆杖之，將士憤怨。綱既登城，令施放自便，能中賊者厚賞，夜發霹靂砲以擊之，軍皆驚呼

The 6th day of the 2nd lunar month: In the evening Li Gang slept at Xianfeng Gate, as the Jin people were moving to attack this area. Before hand, Cai Mao had ordered the men that they were not allowed to fire on the Jin soliders. All those firing the trebuchets and ballistas were to be caned, and the soldiers were angry at this. Gang arrived at the walls, and ordered them to fire at will. those who could hit the enemy were to be heavily rewarded, at night they launched stones at the enemy from the trebuchets, and the army rejoiced.

(this probably more or less demostrate that the Song court was trying to get peace with the Jin.... so they ordered men to hold their fire, but Li Gang was against seeking peace and thus reversed this order.)

After this the Jin and Song reached a deal and the first Siege ended.
I'll post more on the second battle and other details later.

Edited by Yun, 12 March 2005 - 04:29 AM.

[Yun]

Bianjing is better known today as Kaifeng (the name Bianjing simply means 'capital on the Bian River').

I've edited the equivalents for the Chinese method of counting the time.

霹靂砲, 手砲, and 坐砲 should all be types and sizes of traction-operated trebuchets, not cannons or handguns. Gunpowder handguns and cannons were probably only used in the late Southern Song or Yuan onwards.

By the Western calendar, the first siege began on 31 January 1126 (7th of the 1st lunar month), and Li Gang's defence began on 2 Feb (9th day). Li Gang reversed the ceasefire order on 1 March (the 6th day of the 2nd lunar month). I encouage you all to use this tool to convert calendar dates: http://www.sinica.ed...nocal/luso.html

待船至即以長鉤搭就岸投石碎之 means that they used long poles with hooks to drag the enemy boats to shore, and then smashed them with rocks thrown by soldiers or launched by trebuchets.

又於中流安頓叉木及運蔡京家假山石疊門道間 means that they placed wooden stakes and garden rocks confiscated from Cai Jing's home as obstacles in the river. Cai Jing and Song Huizong (the emperor who had now abdicated to his son Qinzong) were infamous for collecting strange or beautiful rocks from all over the empire, shipping them to Bianjing by the Grand Canal.

[RollingWave]

A BBS is a differnent coding system for web pages than say.. World wide web, it's pretty popular in Taiwan and China, it's usually a collection of boards with chat and friend list systems all in one .larger BBS usually have 10s of thousands of members. and all sorts of different boards on various topics.

Yun, what does 班直乘城射之 mean? i'm not quiet sure, espically the 班直乘城 part.

[Yun]

班直 probably just means the soldiers on duty. 禁衛班直善射者千人 would mean 1,000 good archers from those imperial guards who were then on duty.

乘城射之 means coming up onto the city walls to shoot at the enemy below.

[zuwairi]

[attachment=109:attachment]Maybe crossbow/infantry just look like this

[DuncanHead]

I've just discovered this very interesting thread! Thanks, RollingWave, for posting the translations.

I have de Crespigny's translation of Sima Guang's acccount of the Jie Qiao battle. When describing Qu Yi's infantry, this reads as follows:

"Shao ordered Qu Yi to take command of 800 good soldiers and go up first. A thousand strong crossbows supported them from two sides."

I see above there's some uncertainty about where the crossbowmen were deployed relative to the other infantry; de Crespigny's translation has the crossbows on the flanks, as suggested by RollingWave at the start of post 4. This matches, for instance, 16th/17th century European pike-and-shot formations, where a regiment forms with a block of pikes in the centre and muskets on the wings; or 100 Years' War English formations, with dismounted men-at-arms flanked by archers. It is sometimes hard to see in detail how these formations actually worked in practice, but they seem to have done so! It wouldn't provide any concealment for the crossbowmen - though if they simply crouched behind large shields, their crossbows would be hidden anyway - but the support of men equipped for close combat might boost the crossbowmen's morale without hindering their field of fire.

(Crespigny, Rafe de, The Last of the Han: being the chronicle of the years 181-220 AD as recorded in chapters 58-68 of the Tzu-chih t’ung-chien of Ssu-ma Kuang (Australian National University, Canberra, 1969) , p.88)

Secondly, I see you're translating 楯 as "pavise". de Crespigny simply has "shields", leaving it uncertain whether the crossbowmen, the other infantry, or both are behind the shields. How well do we know exactly what type of shield 楯 means? Is it defined or described in any ancient source?

thanks,
Duncan

[shurite7]

[attachment=109:attachment]Maybe crossbow/infantry just look like this

Duncan head mentioned the question of crossbow formation, is this referring to the Song - Jin battle? If so, I thought crossbowmen (during the Song dynasty) were not mixed with spearmen/swordsmen or other types of units. Is this correct?