12 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

I've been watching History Channel where they presented a chinese multi-stage rocket (developed during Ming dynasty). Interestingly, they mentioned this was a form of "ancient cruise or inter-continental" missile.

Anyway, this multi-stage rocket was known as "Huo Long Chu Shui 火龙出水" (Fire Dragon Out of the Water). Below show some pictures of it



(Source : Huolongjing 《火龙经》清刻本, [火龙出水」外观图)





The ancient Chinese multi-stage rockets were used both in land as well as naval warfare. The "Fire Dragon Out of Water" was a two-stage rocket and was mentioned in the chinese source Wubeizhi 《武备志》(1621)

It comprised of about a 1.65m long tube equipped with many rockets inside. The front was designed to look like a dragon head while the back was designed to look like the tail of the dragon. The two ends of the rear body of the fire dragon were equipped with two rockets. These rockets were linked by strings to the ignition on the inside. Then one uses a final string to ignite the 4 rockets at the lower portion of the fire dragon. The lower portion of the dragon body is the 1st stage rocket, while the inner body of the dragons were the 2nd stage rockets.

When "Fire Dragon out of water" were placed onto a warship and used for attacking enemy ships, one can ignite the 4 first-stage rockets at the lower portion of the dragon body. This act as forms of booster propeling the dragon body forward for a certain distance. After the combustion of the 1st stage rocket is depleted, it will automatically ignite the 2nd stage rockets on the inside body of the dragon.These 2nd stage rockets will be fired out of the dragon's mouth towards the enemy ship, creating explosion on the enemy ship. Each rocket has about 750 g of gunpowder. The weapon is about 5-10 kg and can traverse a cruise distance of 1.308-1.962 km

Below shows some pictures of the structure of firing:





This two stage rocket was the ancestors of today's multi-stage inter-continental missiles/rockets. Joseph Needham once mentioned that the "Fire Dragon out of water" was the ancestor of Apollo who landed on the moon during the 20th century.

If you have any further info, please do contribute.

For more info, refer to source http://cn.chiculture...ml/0818c09.html

[General_Zhaoyun]

Chinese Returnable "To and fro" (bi-directional) rocket

There is another type of ancient chinese multi-stage rocket known as "Fei kong Sha Tong 飛空砂筒" (Flying Sky Sand Tube) developed during Ming dynasty . This is a form of 'returnable' (bi-directional) rocket. That means it can fly to and fro, i.e. to the enemy and then return back to the launcher (attacker).

Below show a picture of this type of rocket:



This is a two-stage rocket. It is composed of two boosters, one explosion tube and a firing bamboo rod. The 3 parts were tied together using hemp ropes and used the fish glue to fix their locations.

The explosion tube was equipped with gunpowder explosives, while the explosives were comprised of fine sand. They were tied onto the front of the bamboo rod. The lower portion of the explosion tube was equipped with a rocket facing downwards, while the other end was tied with another rocket facing upwards (in opposite direction). They were connected to another by strings. The entire installation is about 231 cm (2.31 m). After they are constructed, they were put onto the bamboo rocket launcher. When installing two rockets, one booster must face up while the other must face down and the connection must be accurate. Otherwise, there would be undesirable consequence.



How do the rockets fly "to and then back" in two directions ?

Basically, ignite rocket A (see above picture). The entire installation will be propelled forward to fly into the enemy. After the rocket combustion was completed, it will automatically ignite the explosion tube to cause an explosion as well as spitted out fine sand. This caused explosion which killed the enemy, while at the same time can cause the enemy to be blinded by the fine sand spitted out. After the explosion is completed, it will ignite rocket B. Because its booster direction is opposite that of rocket A, it will propel in the opposite direction to fly back to the attacker's camp, causing unpredictability in the enemy. Thus, the "Flying Sky Sand Tube" is a form of two stage rockets. The 1st stage and 2nd stage fly in opposite direction, causing it to be 'returnable' (retractable)

Source: http://cn.chiculture...ml/0818c09.html

[Montou]

Hi, thanks for the opening of this topic, in France too I lwatched recently the same doc from History Channel, but, sorry to put again as for the naval and land mines, the same, not sceptical but cartesian question:
do we have any evidence from historical annals or books that these extraordinary weapons were effectively built and used at war? or are they only imaginative projects without any reality?
Thanks
Michel

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hi, thanks for the opening of this topic, in France too I lwatched recently the same doc from History Channel, but, sorry to put again as for the naval and land mines, the same, not sceptical but cartesian question:
do we have any evidence from historical annals or books that these extraordinary weapons were effectively built and used at war? or are they only imaginative projects without any reality?
Thanks
Michel

You might want to refer to the Ming military book Wubeizhi 《武备志》, where the description appeared. Unfortunately, I don't have this book and couldn't check its information.

I read somewhere that the "Fire Dragon Out of Water" was used by the chinese troops in Imjin War (Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea) of late 16th century against the Japanese. However, I'm not sure if this is mere speculation and whether such information is reliable. Certainly, it requires more research evidence.

[DaMo]

It's a multi-stage multi-warhead rocket that apparently could cruise. Ingenious, though bringing in ICBMs and Apollo moon missions may be pushing it.

[Mei Houwang]

The Fire Dragon surely used the same concept as today's rockets, but I'm pretty sure that the Apollo engineers have no idea what the Fire Dragon is. I doubt they based their design off of it.

[Yang Zongbao]

Liang Jieming wrote of these rockets in his book. It might be worth checking it out.

Saying it was an ancient form of an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile is probably pushing it, given they were short ranged tactical weapons and not long ranged strategic missiles.

[Montou]

even if I am an admirer for the fantastic work done by Needham to reveal the chinese technology , to compare this rocket to an ICBM and, worse to Appolo, is quite excessive and and the edge of stupidity.

the closest comparison could be for a naval use, the French surface-surface missile Exocet which sunk the british cruiser Sheffield durind the Falkland war.
But in any case what is lacking is the guidance system:how to aim (except by putting it in the right direction!) and guide it till the target?

Without any evidence describing its operational use, I still doubt whether it was anything else than a"vue de l'esprit" (sorry in english, view from mind?)

Michel

[tadamson]

These multi part rockets are not multi stage (a multi stage rocket discards the used up stage and gains because of the lost weight). The shooting out multiple arrows was an attempt to overcome the main drawback of rocket arrows (only one actual weapon for all that effort). Like many of the more exotic weapon systems described in these books they may well have been used a couple of times, but simple segmented boxes pre loaded with a dozen or so rocket arrows would be less complicated, easier to manufacture, easier to fire and more effective.

[William O'Chee]

It's a multi-stage multi-warhead rocket that apparently could cruise. Ingenious, though bringing in ICBMs and Apollo moon missions may be pushing it.

I am afraid, based on the description, I doubt that these rockets would have "cruised" terribly far.

Their weight was less than half that of a Congreve rocket, which had a maximum range of around 3,000 yards. Moreover, the Congreve rocket used a metal combustion chamber, which could sustain higher pressures, and therefore travel further.

Any suggestion the Chinese rocket was a form of "ancient cruise or inter-continental" missile, is nothing other than baseless journalistic hyperbole for the consumption of the feeble minded. This is something the History Channel seems to specialise in.

[Freddy1]

Its probably just a short distance tactical level rocket. Or an incendiary fire lance like device.

Other than that. Someone should simply build one and see if it works or not.

Edited by Freddy1, 19 November 2008 - 11:12 AM.

[Coxinga]

sorry, this may seem late, but
THE FIRE DRAGON IS ON MYTHBUSTERS! YEAH!
the 2012 season!

[BlackHumour]

it is not pushing it to compare it to an ICBM or whatsoever because the ICBMs are actually just really scaled up versions of the HLCS (Huo Long Chu Shui), the ICBM is literally the same as the HLCS. From being a multi-stage rocket to having several warheads to increase range and area of denial. the only difference is that one is short range the other is long and that the ICBM can be accurately targeted at various targets while the HLCS "spray and pray". The HLCS is ancestral to the ICBM, cruisers & space rockets, they work on the same principles and technology and in fact such a weapon at that time was probably the most advance weapon in the whole world and in the whole of human history up to that time.

 

If it is pushing it, than we can very deny the fact that guns came from fire lances.

 

also, i remembered that they were made with bronze for the later productions, will update if i find anything.