31 replies to this topic

[Moonstone]

So it looks like besides Mongolian bilig, the other East or Southeast Asian languages that borrowed actual Sanskrit words to name the days of the week were Thai and Burmese. This is not surprising since the Thais and Burmese have been heavily influenced, in their early history, by Indian (both Hindu and Buddhist) religion and culture transmitted by Indian traders and monks. You mentioned that Malays also used the Sanskrit names; if so, this must be an older form of Malay, since the current Malay names for the days of the week are mostly numerical and not Sanskrit-derived.

Please reread my previous post: "the Indian names have been used historically or are currently being used by a much greater number of peoples in greater East Asia (Mongols, Tibetans, Thais, Malays, Burmese, etc.)." As in Mongolia, the Tibetans have historically used the Sanskrit names in writing.

As for the numerical system of naming the days of the week that is used among modern Malays, are you sure that it is not a calque (or even a direct borrowing) of the Arabic system? Many Malays in the broader sense, including most Indonesians, currently use Arabic(-derived) names for the days of the week. This is probably a result of the Islamic influence in the Malay region, which is, of course, relatively recent compared to the ancient Indian/Sanskrit influence.

Edited by Moonstone, 06 December 2008 - 01:29 PM.

[Moonstone]

Moonstone, I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't understand my point.

A "point" is totally lacking in your criticisms of my previous posts. You seem to have failed to recognize that the ancient Chinese names for the days of the week are simply calques of the Western system, made by replacing Western names for the sun, moon, and first five planets with the Chinese names for these heavenly bodies (日曜（=太阳），月曜（=月亮），火曜（=火星），水曜（=水星），木曜（=木星），金曜（=金星），土曜（=土星）). The fact that the Chinese names are calques of the Western names has absolutely nothing to do with the Five Phases. "火星" is the native Chinese name for the planet "Mars," regardless of whether the etymology of that native Chinese name might have something to do with the Five Phases.

The problem here is that you are overanalyzing the Chinese nouns 火星 (Mars), 水星 (Mercury), 木星 (Jupiter), etc. These are single words, and proper nouns at that. Quit trying to break them down into their etymological constituents.

Edited by Moonstone, 06 December 2008 - 12:56 PM.

[Yun]

replacing Western names for the sun, moon, and first five planets with the Chinese names for these heavenly bodies (日曜（=太阳），月曜（=月亮），火曜（=火星），水曜（=水星），木曜（=木星），金曜（=金星），土曜（=土星）).

That is exactly my point (which you have been missing) about why the Chinese names for the days of the week are not all calques.

You argue that the Chinese names are simply calques of the Western or Indian names. Well, according to the Wiki definition you referred me to, a calque is "a word or phrase borrowed from another language by literal, word-for-word (Latin: "verbum pro verbo") or root-for-root translation". In that case, what root in the names of the Roman god Mercury or the Indian god Budha could become 'water luminary' in Chinese? And what root in the names of the Roman god Jupiter and the Indian god Brihaspati could become 'wood luminary' in Chinese? Obviously these are not calques - in fact, a calque was impossible because the Chinese did not worship or even know the Roman and Indian gods. The only things borrowed by the Chinese were the concept of the seven-day week itself, the naming of the days of the week after the sun, moon, and five planets, and the sequence in which the sun, moon, and five planets are arranged. You also speak of "calques of the Western system", and that makes no sense. There are no "calques of systems", only calques of words or phrases. And while the Tang Chinese seven-day week is an adaptation of a foreign concept, the names used for the planets are not calques. They are entirely indigenous and owe nothing to any other language.

To rephrase my argument in another way: The Tang Chinese names for the days from Tuesday to Saturday are not calques, because they could only be calques if the names of the planets themselves are calques. An example of a true Chinese calque of 'Mercury-day' (Mercredi in French) or the Sanskrit 'Budha-vara' would be a Chinese name meaning 'god of merchants (planet) day', or 'messenger god (planet) day', or 'god of communications (planet) day'. But the Tang Chinese name for Wednesday instead means 'water luminary day', and that is not a calque. Instead it is a hybrid of a foreign concept (days of the week named after planets) and a native concept (planets named after the Five Phases). The foreign concept of naming the planets after gods is completely absent.

[Moonstone]

You argue that the Chinese names are simply calques of the Western or Indian names. Well, according to the Wiki definition you referred me to, a calque is "a word or phrase borrowed from another language by literal, word-for-word (Latin: "verbum pro verbo")...translation".

This is precisely what the ancient Chinese names for the days of the week are.

[Yun]

How is it "literal, word-for-word translation" if the names of the deities are not translated? As I said:

The Tang Chinese names for the days from Tuesday to Saturday are not calques, because they could only be calques if the names of the planets themselves are calques.

Let's consider an example that's somewhat similar to this. The Chinese name for Christmas Day is 'Shengdan Jie' ('holy birth festival'), but it is not a calque, although the concept of Christmas itself is clearly foreign to China. Even if the Chinese name were 'Shengdan Ri' ('holy birth day'), it would not be a calque. It would only be a calque if the Chinese name were 'Jidu Misa Ri' (Christ's Mass day'), which consists of the Chinese forms (transliterated) of the root words of the phrase 'Christmas', or 'Jiushizhu Shengcan Ri' ('Savior's Eucharist day'), which renders into Chinese the literal meaning of the same root words (although the extreme literal meaning would be 'Savior's Dismissal Day', which would be the equally incoherent 'Jiushizhu Jiesan Ri' in Chinese).

Instead, Chinese Christians indigenized the concept of Christmas Day by borrowing the native term 'Shengdan', which originally meant 'sage's birth' and referred to Confucius' birthday, and applying it to Christ's birthday with the new meaning 'holy birth'. They therefore translated a concept (the birthday of a holy person) using a term they already had, rather than translating words from the name of the concept.

Or, to borrow an example from the Wikipedia article on calques, the English 'Adam's apple' is a calque of a French phrase that also means 'Adam's apple'. Such calques are easily made because both cultures share a belief (whether mythical or not) in a person named Adam who ate an 'apple'. But when the modern Chinese decided to adopt a term for the Adam's apple, they could not calque easily because most of them had no concept of Adam. So they called the Adam's apple a houjie, a 'throat knot'. They could have calqued and called it a 'Yadang pingguo' ('Adam's apple'), but this usage would hardly have caught on among Chinese who were not Christians, Jews, or Muslims. Or they could have adopted the 'apple' concept and called the Adam's apple a hou pingguo ('throat apple'), but that would not have been a complete calque. Compare this with the term 'flea market', which is a calque from French into English, and was in modern times calqued by the Chinese as tiaozao shichang (literally 'flea market'). This calquing is easy because there are no foreign religious/mythological beliefs or names involved - every Chinese person knows what a flea is.

The Tang Chinese came into contact with the concept of seven days named after planets that were named after gods. But they only borrowed the 'day named after a planet' part and not the 'planet named after a god' part. If the Chinese had translated literally, word for word, root for root, then even the gods would have found their way into the Chinese names for the days of the week, in the form 'god-planet-day' or 'god/planet-day'. Clearly they did not. Instead, they translated a foreign concept using different but equivalent native terms that they already had. That is why I say that the Tang Chinese names for the days of the week are not pure calques.

[Moonstone]

How is it "literal, word-for-word translation" if the names of the deities are not translated?

The ancient Chinese weren't translating names of deities; they were translating names of heavenly bodies (天体), which in this case were a star (the Sun), a natural satellite (the Moon), and five planets (Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn).

FIN.

Edited by Moonstone, 06 December 2008 - 07:53 PM.

[Yun]

The ancient Chinese weren't translating names of deities; they were translating names of heavenly bodies (天体), which in this case were a star (the Sun), a natural satellite (the Moon), and five planets (Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn).

They were translating, but their translations were not calques. That is what I have been trying to say all along.

Look at the modern Chinese translations for the names of the planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, which are indeed calques, and you may see what I mean by "not calques".

If you still don't see what I mean, then it is FIN from me as well.

[Moonstone]

They were translating, but their translations were not calques. That is what I have been trying to say all along.

Look at the modern Chinese translations for the names of the planets Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto, which are indeed calques, and you may see what I mean by "not calques".

If you still don't see what I mean, then it is FIN from me as well.

The etymology of the Chinese names for the planets "Mars," "Mercury," "Jupiter," "Venus," and "Saturn" is completely irrelevant to the question of whether the ancient Chinese names of the days of the weeks were calques of their Western counterparts. The Chinese names for the five planets that are visible from Earth without the aid of a telescope are much older than the Tang Dynasty, when you claim that the concept of the seven-day week was introduced to China. These names (水星/水曜, 木星/木曜, etc.) can be found in texts of the Zhou and Han eras. All that the Chinese did when they were introduced to the concept of the seven-day week was calque the Western name for each of the seven days by translating the name of the celestial body that appears in each day's name (Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, or Saturn) with the Chinese language's pre-existing name for the same celestial body, and translating the element that means "day" (day in English, dies in Latin, etc.) with the Classical Chinese word 日, which means "sun; daytime; day, date," etc. The ancient Chinese names for the days of the week are definitely calques of some ancient Western language's names for the days of the week, and I doubt that you should find any scholar who would dispute this.

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are irrelevant. There is no day of the week named after any of them. (Besides, no ancient language had any names for them; these planets were first discovered in the 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, subsequent to the invention of the telescope, so their names were necessarily coined very recently.)

All that is important is the following, in addition to the accepted fact that the direction of conceptual transmission was from West to East rather than the reverse:

Sunday
Latin: Dies Solis (i.e. "Sun's Day," from dies "day" + solis "Sun's")
Ancient Chinese: 日曜日 (i.e. "Sun Day," from 日曜 "the Sun (as an astronomical object)" + 日 "day")

Monday
Latin: Dies Lunae (i.e. "Moon's Day," from dies "day" + lunae "Moon's")
Ancient Chinese: 月曜日 (i.e. "Moon Day," from 月曜 "the Moon (as an astronomical object)" + 日 "day")

Tuesday
Latin: Dies Martis (i.e. "Mars' Day," from dies "day" + martis "Mars'")
Ancient Chinese: 火曜日 (i.e. "Mars Day," from 火曜 "Mars" + 日 "day")

Wednesday
Latin: Dies Mercurii (i.e. "Mercury's Day," from dies "day" + mercurii "Mercury's")
Ancient Chinese: 水曜日 (i.e. "Mercury Day," from 水曜 "Mercury" + 日 "day")

Thursday
Latin: Dies Jovis (i.e. "Jupiter's Day," from dies "day" + jovis "Jupiter's")
Ancient Chinese: 木曜日 (i.e. "Jupiter Day," from 木曜 "Jupiter" + 日 "day")

Friday
Latin: Dies Veneris (i.e. "Venus' Day," from dies "day" + veneris "Venus'")
Ancient Chinese: 金曜日 (i.e. "Venus Day," from 金曜 "Venus" + 日 "day")

Saturday
Latin: Dies Saturni (i.e. "Saturn's Day," from dies "day" + saturni "Saturn's")
Ancient Chinese: 土曜日 (i.e. "Saturn Day," from 土曜 "Saturn" + 日 "day")

Edited by Moonstone, 08 December 2008 - 01:04 AM.

[Yun]

Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are irrelevant. There is no day of the week named after any of them.

They are irrelevant to you, but not to me. If there were days of the week named after them, and if the Chinese translations were 天王星日，海王星日，and 冥王星日, then they would be near-perfect calques. 火曜日 is not a complete calque of Mars-day (or the Indian version of Mars-day) because there is an untranslated root element.

you seem to be unbearably stubborn

And you, sir, think I am unbearably stubborn because you are unbearably arrogant, and have been so throughout our conversation on this thread. I will not argue further with someone displaying your sort of attitude.

[Yang Zongbao]

Moonstone. That is quite enough. If you have an argument, then make it nicely. There is no need for all of the rudeness you included. It sure doesn't help you look good. You will be more respectful to others in the future. Especially to staff members.

Consider this a verbal warning. Don't let us find you doing it again.

[SNK_1408]

The names of the seven days of the week in Japanese do not reflect the names of "stars," but rather the names of the first five planets of our solar system (the ones that were visible to people prior to the invention of the telescope) in addition to the Sun and Earth's moon.

日曜日 nichiyōbi ("sun-luminary-day") = Sunday
月曜日 getsuyōbi ("moon-luminary-day") = Monday
火曜日 kayōbi ("fire-luminary-day" = "Mars day") = Tuesday
水曜日 suiyōbi ("water-luminary-day" = "Mercury day") = Wednesday
木曜日 mokuyōbi ("wood-luminary-day" = "Jupiter day") = Thursday
金曜日 kin'yōbi ("metal-luminary-day" = "Venus day") = Friday
土曜日 doyōbi ("earth-luminary-day" = "Saturn day") = Saturday

That's pretty much same for Korea too.

月耀/曜日 Yuèyàorì Monday, Japanese: [Getsuyōbi], Korean: 월요일 [Woryoil]
火曜日 Huǒyàorì Tuesday, Japanese: [Kayōbi], Korean: 화요일 [Hwayoil]
水曜日 Shuǐyàorì Wednesday, Japanese: [Suiyōbi], Korean: 수요일 [Suyoil]
木曜日 Mùyàorì Thursday, Japanese: [Mokuyōbi], Korean: 목요일 [Mogyoil]
金曜日 Jīnyàorì Friday, Japanese: [Kin'yōbi], Korean: 금요일 [Geumyoil]
土曜日 Tǔyàorì Saturday, Japanese: [Doyōbi], Korean: 토요일 [Toyoil]
日曜日 Rìyàorì Sunday, Japanese: [Nichiyōbi], Korean: 일요일 [Iryoil]

[aidaa]

MANUAL OF MONGOLIAN ASTROLOGY AND DIVINATION
(Scripta Mongolica)
by Mostaert, Anoine


No__Mongolian______________________Latin_____English_____Tibetan_____________San
skrit


1.__ Naran eder* (Sun):-------------------Soleil------Sunday-------Nyam (Nim-a)------- Adiya
2.__ Saran eder (Moon):--------------------Lune-------Monday------Davaa-------------------Sumiya
3.__ Gal eder (Fire) :------------------------Mars-------Tuesday------Myagmar (Mig-mar)---Angarag
4.__ Usun eder (Water):---------------------Mercure---Wednesday--Lhagva------------------Bud
5.__ Modun eder (Wooden):-----------------Jupiter----Thursday-----Purev (Pur-bu)--------Barhasbadi
6.__ Altan eder(Gold- probably Metal) :----Venus-----Friday--------Baasan (Pa-san)-------Sugar
7.__ Shoroon eder(Dust-probably Earth):--Saturn----Saturday-----Byamba (Bimba)-------Sanchir

*-Word "eder" means "day"

In Mongolia, The Tibetan names of the seven days of the week are used officially. Unofficially , Mongolians use frequently Sanskrit version or Mongolian version.

Personally , If I were head of the state, I would definitely push for Mongolian version for official usage.


PS- I am curious about what is weekdays name in India and Tibet?

As far as I know that we don't usually use the 1st version at all. It is just the translation of the Tibetan version and often included into the calendar for religious purposes. We use most of the time numerical system everyday, like 1st day, 2nd day etc.

[Moonstone]

That's pretty much same for Korea too.

月耀/曜日 Yuèyàorì Monday, Japanese: [Getsuyōbi], Korean: 월요일 [Woryoil]
火曜日 Huǒyàorì Tuesday, Japanese: [Kayōbi], Korean: 화요일 [Hwayoil]
水曜日 Shuǐyàorì Wednesday, Japanese: [Suiyōbi], Korean: 수요일 [Suyoil]
木曜日 Mùyàorì Thursday, Japanese: [Mokuyōbi], Korean: 목요일 [Mogyoil]
金曜日 Jīnyàorì Friday, Japanese: [Kin'yōbi], Korean: 금요일 [Geumyoil]
土曜日 Tǔyàorì Saturday, Japanese: [Doyōbi], Korean: 토요일 [Toyoil]
日曜日 Rìyàorì Sunday, Japanese: [Nichiyōbi], Korean: 일요일 [Iryoil]

Yes. As I have mentioned in my first post in this thread, the ancient Chinese version of this system for naming the days of the week, which makes use of astronomical nomenclature for the Sun, Earth's moon, and five planets (Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn), has been introduced to Japan and Korea as well, and it has been commonly used in modern Japan and Korea since the shift from the traditional calendars to the Western, Gregorian calendar. The Japanese and Korean versions are just standard Sino-Japanese and Sino-Korean readings of the ancient Chinese version; there is no substantive difference among them.

Edited by Moonstone, 08 December 2008 - 01:45 PM.

[JamyangNorbu]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I wanted to add some details that I hope will clarify the Tibetan perspective on the days and their origins.

As for the Tibetan days of the week, they are:
gza' nyi ma (Sun's day)
gza' zla ba (Moon's day)
gza' mig mar (Fire planet day) (Mars)
gza' lhag pa (Water planet day) (Mercury)
gza' phur bu (Wood planet day) (Jupiter)
gza' pa sangs (Metal planet day) (Venus)
gza' spen pa (Earth planet day) (Saturn)

First we need to understand that the English terms above are not translations, and nor does the elemental attribution paint a complete picture of the Tibetan understanding. For example, the day mig dmar (misspelled above), is not fire planet day. It is gza'=planet, mig=eye, dmar=red, ie red eye planet. lhag pa means greatest. The main elemental attribution that Tibetans use for these days/planets is in fact Indian in origin, and is listed as follows in the Great treasury of Tibetan [and] Chinese words (bod rgya tshig mdzod chen mo | 藏漢大辭典)

gza'i khams |
nyi ma mig dmar me yi khams | zla ba lhag pa chu yi khams | pa sangs spen pa sa yi khams | phur bu sgra gcan rlung gi khams | zhes pa ltar skar rtsis pa dang |

Elements of [the] planets:
It is said by stellar diviners, [the] Sun [and] Mars [are the] element of fire, [the] Moon and Mercury [are the] element of water, Venus and Saturn [are the] element of earth, [and] Jupiter and Rāhu [are the] element of space.

skar rtsis/stellar divination is what Indo-Europeans would recognize as astrology, and makes up the primary Tibetan understanding of the planets, and even includes the mythical Indian celestial body Rāhu. Secondary to that is nag rtsis, with nag being a short form of rgya nag the traditional Tibetan term for China. This system is also called 'byung rtsis/elemental divination. This particular system is essentially the same as the one presented in Yun's quote above, and also includes the 12 animal zodiac, and the definition above goes on to say:

nag rtsis pa rnams kyis phur bu shing dang | pa sangs lcags yin par 'dod pa ma gtogs gzhan 'dra'o |

It is considered similarly by the Chinese astrologers, except Jupiter [is] wood and Venus is iron.

So the fact that the Tibetans, Koreans, Japanese, and Vietnamese all named the planets after the Five Phases reflects Chinese influence, while the fact that they have the concept of a seven-day week with the days named after the sun, moon, and five planets reflects Indo-European influence. Both influences are present - it is neither all Chinese nor all Indian.

While there is definitely a Chinese influenced Tibetan understanding of the day/planet/element correspondence, there is an stronger influence from Indo-European astrology via India, and I have yet to see any evidence that the Tibetan names are not translations from Indic languages, or to assume the greater antiquity of the Chinese elemental assignments in Tibetan.

Edited by JamyangNorbu, 17 January 2010 - 07:00 PM.

[Dagvadorj]

MANUAL OF MONGOLIAN ASTROLOGY AND DIVINATION
(Scripta Mongolica)
by Mostaert, Anoine


No__Mongolian______________________Latin_____English_____Tibetan_____________San
skrit


1.__ Naran eder* (Sun):-------------------Soleil------Sunday-------Nyam (Nim-a)------- Adiya
2.__ Saran eder (Moon):--------------------Lune-------Monday------Davaa-------------------Sumiya
3.__ Gal eder (Fire) :------------------------Mars-------Tuesday------Myagmar (Mig-mar)---Angarag
4.__ Usun eder (Water):---------------------Mercure---Wednesday--Lhagva------------------Bud
5.__ Modun eder (Wooden):-----------------Jupiter----Thursday-----Purev (Pur-bu)--------Barhasbadi
6.__ Altan eder(Gold- probably Metal) :----Venus-----Friday--------Baasan (Pa-san)-------Sugar
7.__ Shoroon eder(Dust-probably Earth):--Saturn----Saturday-----Byamba (Bimba)-------Sanchir

*-Word "eder" means "day"

In Mongolia, The Tibetan names of the seven days of the week are used officially. Unofficially , Mongolians use frequently Sanskrit version or Mongolian version.

Personally , If I were head of the state, I would definitely push for Mongolian version for official usage.


PS- I am curious about what is weekdays name in India and Tibet?

The Tibetan one is used officially. Though, I guess everyone knew the Sansrit one when I was young as I did. Same is used in Tibet and Nepal as well, no idea about the situation in Bhutan. I notice Tibetans and Nepalese have the similar names like Mongolians, which are derived from the day names like Nima, Lkhagva, Purbe etc.

To me, Sansrit ones are cool and listen more Mongolic than the Tibetan one. Those are used officially for the planets, right?