10 replies to this topic

[xenopower]

Shields:
I just watched the movie Gladiator,and got thinking about this. The Romans used shields extensively in combat, and were famous for their shield tactics like the testudo. In China, you see much less of an emphasis on shields. For example, in the Three Kingdoms, few heros had shields. Is this due to extensive use of the crossbow, which could penetrate shields? Or is it due to extensive use of cavalry, which could out manuever shield formations?

Halberds:
These are an important Chinese weapon. They seems to be as common as swords and spears. Why did the West not use this weapon as much?

Thanks in advance for your thoughts and input.

[RollingWave]

1. the romance of the 3 kingdom is a horrible source for any detailed military, much have been proven to be completely false (and the most is the weapons they were carrying, which was almost 100% wrong) if you read my thread on "actural battle description" in this section of the forum, you can see there were extensive shield use... and that example was from around the 3 kingdoms time too.

2. mainly because the Ji (halbard is a rough translation... it's really moer a hook spear or pole axe) was a evolution from the days of chariot warfare, where the hook feature was added to spears so it could be used to hook people off chariots and it's also useful for swing from chariots. the Roman Greeks did not use this because they never used chariot warfare (terrain and culture and natural resources reasons) after Chariot warfare faded the Ji was slowly to become ever more spear like until it would be completely replaced by the good ole spear again.

[Yun]

Chinese shields were smaller and mostly gourd-shaped until the end of the Han - they were used by skirmishing swordsmen and halberdiers, and chariots would also have a shield in front. Larger pavises were used to protect crossbowmen - they would be held up by infantry while the crossbowman drew his weapon and shot his bolt.

In the Age of Fragmentation, the dominance of heavy cavalry meant that infantry formations had to adopt large shields and long spears to deter a cavalry charge. Crossbow units had also declined or lost their effectiveness against the heavy cavalry armour. Thereafter, large shields were routinely used against cavalry, even when crossbows were also widely used. Faces of monsters or tigers were often painted on these shields to intimidate enemy horses and soldiers.

Read these other threads:
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2497
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2567
http://www.chinahist...?showtopic=2515
http://www.chinahist...topic=1836&st=0

[TMPikachu]

Halberd type weapons rose in popularity with feudal knights, so it's not an obscure weapon in the west.
I think there were many famous military companies that used halberds... swiss guards I think.

[HaSY]

the halbedrs are effective because hook down the rider from his horse and deliver instant death blow to them..........

european halberds are heavier than asian ones

[Yun]

It's actually not very accurate to equate Western halberds with the ji. The halberds of Europe were more similar to the pole-axes (da fu) of China, except with a spear-point added, because besides hooking, hacking and thrusting they could also be used for chopping: http://members.aol.c...rge/halberb.htm

Or one could say that the ji was more similar in design and use to the European guisarme: http://members.aol.c...ge/guisarme.htm

Similarly, it is incorrect to call the dadao or guandao weapon popularly (but wrongly) associated with Guan Yu a 'halberd'. The most appropriate translation for it would be 'glaive': http://members.aol.c...orge/glaive.htm

[HaSY]

but that's what most books teach me about the terms...haha

[TMPikachu]

on shields, in some Tang art, I see swordsmen wielding curving shields that are somewhat rectangular in shape. They looked really cool for swordsmen.
Just wanted to state that, curved rectangular shields are cool.

[Yun]

on shields, in some Tang art, I see swordsmen wielding curving shields that are somewhat rectangular in shape. They looked really cool for swordsmen.

I think you're referring to the famous mural of infantry swordsmen fighting cataphract cavalry in the Dunhuang Caves, dated to the Western Wei dynasty in the Age of Fragmentation. The swordsmen's shields are ergonomically shaped to fit the curve of their arm. This mural is reproduced on the cover of David Graff's "Medieval Chinese Warfare, 300-900 AD".

[RollingWave]

i've seen that picture too Yun, however I wonder: that infantry certainly don't look like he stand much of a chance with he's short weapon and light armor.

[TMPikachu]

I think you're referring to the famous mural of infantry swordsmen fighting cataphract cavalry in the Dunhuang Caves, dated to the Western Wei dynasty in the Age of Fragmentation. The swordsmen's shields are ergonomically shaped to fit the curve of their arm. This mural is reproduced on the cover of David Graff's "Medieval Chinese Warfare, 300-900 AD".

Yup, that one exactly.

I also saw a clay figure from the Tang in the NY museum that had a curved shield, he held it underneath his arm causually, kinda like a skate board.