Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

Is Han even an Ethnic Group?


  • Please log in to reply
336 replies to this topic

#16 浪淘音

浪淘音

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 628 posts

Posted 06 January 2005 - 06:41 PM

If Northern Han people aren't hybrid, then what happened to ethnicities such as Xian Bei?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


theres a concept called admixture, 500,000 Tuoba(the only Xianbei group that Sinicized well) versus 50 million hans in the north doens't equal hybrid. the southern xiong nu, NuZhen and Tuoba were the most successfully assimilated, however their populations wree small compared to the native Han populations

plus, i was referring to culture. its assumed that southern behavior represents the "Han" norm due to the shift of China's center to the YangZi, however it simply isn't true. Northerners do not practice any specific nomadic cultural elements. however, southern behavior contains many new cultural elements such as rice eating and bussiness oriented behavior(merchants were quite discriminated against in pre-Song society)

#17 MengTzu

MengTzu

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 2,105 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Philosophy
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    General Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Confucianism

Posted 07 January 2005 - 01:32 AM

theres a concept called admixture, 500,000 Tuoba(the only Xianbei group that Sinicized well) versus 50 million hans in the north doens't equal hybrid. the southern xiong nu, NuZhen and Tuoba were the most successfully assimilated, however their populations wree small compared to the native Han populations

plus, i was referring to culture. its assumed that southern behavior represents the "Han" norm due to the shift of China's center to the YangZi, however it simply isn't true. Northerners do not practice any specific nomadic cultural elements. however, southern behavior contains many new cultural elements such as rice eating and bussiness oriented behavior(merchants were quite discriminated against in pre-Song society)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Actually I'm not debating here. I'm just asking, what happened to the Xianbei. Does it mean that Xianbei had mixed into what we call the Hans? (There is a reason I ask this, but it's kinda embarrasing to say.)

#18 hansioux

hansioux

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • CHF Beginner
  • 604 posts

Posted 07 January 2005 - 02:24 AM

If Northern Han people aren't hybrid, then what happened to ethnicities such as Xian Bei?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Did you know XianBei is a translation for Siberia? Or is itthat Siberia is a translation of XianBei? XD

Just some facts to throw on the table.

passing by...
Begging plea of the weak can only receive disrespect, violence and oppression as bestowments. Blood and sweat of the weak can only receive insult, blame and abuse as rewards.

Lai Ho, Formosan Poet

#19 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 07 January 2005 - 02:43 AM

That's one theory about the origin of the name 'Siberia' - not conclusive yet, though. The Xibe ethnicity of northeastern China is also believed to be descended from Xianbei.

As for the Xianbei who assimilated into the Central Plains Han population after the northern dynasties, it wasn't only the Tuoba. The Murong were there in Hebei before the Tuoba invaded them, and were much more assimilated already. The Yuwen, Dugu, Daxi, Pilou, Kudi, Yuchi, and many other such Xianbei clans all formed part of the Tuoba Wei state, and were still around during the Tang. All have now adopted Han surnames and are indistinguishable from the Han.

The Khitan and Kumoxi (Xi) were also of the same Donghu roots as the Xianbei, and moved into the lands formerly held by the Murong after the latter entered the Central Plains. Similarly, the Rouran moved into the lands formerly held by the Tuoba. The Khitan themselves entered the Central Plains during the Five Dynasties. So the Xianbei and their relatives did not die out altogether - one group after another would enter Han-populated areas and become assimilated through inter-marriage, but there were always other groups staying behind. The peoples of eastern Siberia could be one example of the latter.
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#20 浪淘音

浪淘音

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 628 posts

Posted 07 January 2005 - 01:54 PM

invasion or even settlement doesn't equal assimilation especially in the Qidan case. they resisted it vehemently and saw marriage with Hans as degrading. These nomads were fiercely independent and could care less about the superiority of Han culture. It was only through contact for long periods facing a HUGE Native Han population (never dropped below 50 million) that Sinicization could occur. assimilation in the south was not that much easier.

anyway, as you've said, they're are portions of various nomad populations who survived into modern day as slightly different ethnicity
it is purely political(extreme liberalism) to oversimplify the Sinicization factor

#21 Yun

Yun

    Sage-King

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 9,057 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore/USA
  • Interests:Ancient Chinese history, with a focus on the Age of Fragmentation. Chinese ethnicities, religion, philosophy, music, and art and material culture. Military history in general.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Three Kingdoms, Age of Fragmentation, Sui-Tang

Posted 07 January 2005 - 09:01 PM

You might be interested to read our old thread on what happened to the Khitan - for a long time it was assumed that they had been totally wiped out or assimilated after the fall of the Liao (except for those who fled west and founded the Karakhitai state). But DNA testing now suggests that the Daur people of Inner Mongolia are descendants of the Khitan.

http://www.chinahist...p?showtopic=509
The dead have passed beyond our power to honour or dishonour them, but not beyond our ability to try and understand.

#22 somechineseperson

somechineseperson

    Prime Minister (Situ/Chengxiang 司徒/丞相)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 1,650 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin Chinese, English
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Mainland Chinese)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese Philosophy
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Philosophy, Marxism, Religious Philosophy (including Buddhism and Christianity), Chinese History, General World History, History and Philosophy of Science

Posted 19 January 2005 - 01:38 AM

The Chinese didn't have a Western concept of race and ethnicity until the 1800's, before then there wasn't any Han Ethnicity that 92% of Chinese today claim.  Ancient Chinese classified people by geography and political allegiance, not by ethnicity.

Does anyone know who pioneered the concept of a unified Han Ethnicity?  What were the other proposals or alternatives?  How was this notion propagated, and why was it so successful?  And how were the diverse nature (linguistic, cultural, economic differences) of the Chinese peoples reconciled with a single broad and over-sweeping ethnicity?  Was it a wise move in retrospect?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Not quite sure. The concept was not a modern western one but a concept of "Han-ness" did exist in ancient times. The distinction between "Han" and "Hu" was neither tribal nor completely cultural (though it was significantly cultural) but come closest to the modern concept of ethnicity. The similar distinction between "Hua Xia" and "Rong Di Man Yi" goes back even earlier and is not totally tribal either. And it's also more than just a political affiliation. The Zhou people called themselves Hua Xia (See Shang Shu) but not Yin Shang, even though both are previous dynasties. It shows that the term "Hua Xia" is certainly by Zhou times very much beyond a simple dynastic title. "Hua Xia" also was neither purely a tribal label nor a cultural label. Compared with purely tribal labels it is too cultural and compared with purely cultural labels it is too tribal. It's actual meaning is somewhere in between. While it isn't strictly the same as the modern concept of ethnicity, IMHO it is very close to it.

What I am curious about though is that how come some people use the concept of "nation" (i.e. ethnicity) quite freely to describe other ancient peoples, such as the Ancient Egyptians and the Hebrews, even though these people had no modern notion of ethnicity either, certainly no more than China did. But when it comes to Chinese people, suddenly everyone refuses to use the concept of "nation" and "ethnicity".

#23 Borjigin Ayurbarwada

Borjigin Ayurbarwada

    Emperor (Huangdi 皇帝)

  • CHF Han Lin Scholar
  • 4,010 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese History, Chinese Military History, Qing dynasty history

Posted 20 January 2005 - 03:14 PM

"No. The "Han" as an ethnicity only existed since the Republican era, NEVER before.There was an identification of being "people of the fallen Han empire," but it was neither based on ethnicity nor politics. Chinese before the Republican era never considered there to be a common Chinese culture either. People in the north (Jin,Liao) had their own cultures; people in the east (near the Yangtze river) had theirs; and so on. The entire "Han ethnicity" has been a remarkable fabrication achieved only in the past 150 or so years."


No, slight cultural difference is irrelevant considering even today, Han culture are vastly different in different areas, the fact is that the term Han did exist, and used. And it isn't just political but includes racial and cultural. Or else why would the Manchu bother separation of Han and Manchu in marriage when Han isn't considered a race.

#24 tianzhuwoye

tianzhuwoye

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Heilongjiang University, Harbin
  • Interests:Northeastern history and historical linguistics, early Qing, Parhae, Koguryeo, Jin Empire, Tungusic languages, the Liao Empire, warring states, An Lushan, "ethnicity" and "race" as non-issues. Also beer, karaoke and fighting nationalism everywhere.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Tungusic history, Northeastern history

Posted 01 February 2005 - 04:41 AM

This has been pretty interesting so far but there’s a crucial element that’s been missing through most of the discussion. Even the persuasive theory that locates the origin of what we today call ‘ethnicity’ in the way individuals have been classified according to loyalty to a particular state is based, inevitably, given the general nature of the vast majority of the records from this area, on the stories of the kings and bureaucrats running these states. The common people, though, are for the most part left out of the histories, as we have only become a political force in very, very recent times. (Obviously this is a worldwide phenomenon and it’s not only ancient “Chinese” history that has failed to emphasize any role played by “the masses.”) As half-serious examples, Han Wudi never had occasion, nor, presumably, would have felt the need, to go on TV and warn the Zhang Sans and Li Sis of the state “Either you’re with us, or you’re with the barbarians.” The option to go online and discuss personal perceptions of history with people from all over the world was similarly unavailable to the common people, or anybody else at the time. Things change, everywhere and constantly, and this leads us to new understandings of the world and our place in it. It’s been argued on this thread that something comparable to a ‘national identity’ existed prior to the 1800’s, but what that concept entails, and how it applies to the broad social spectrum, is subject to change given a variety of historical developments.

Feel free to explain these changes as the results of technological advances, the inevitable development of economic factors, cultural imperialism and the invasion of ‘foreign ideas,’ what have you, but many scholars argue that part of the shift that has led towards an emphasis on the role of the people has included a re-evaluation of the way a state is defined. The argument, simplified, is that ancient empires tended to be ‘center-based,’ that is, defined and understood at the time AS the Emperor and the court, while today we tend to believe a state should be understood as what’s inside its borders. (As a tangible example, on another post wuTao and Liang Jieming are raising points implying that the Great Wall may never have been viewed as the ‘border’ that we tend to assume it was today- it sure isn’t much of a border now) Since today these borders include lots of people who have more time on their hands, more access to information than ever before, and whose opinions suddenly matter, we’ve picked up the twin notions of nationalism and racism, beliefs in kinds of genealogical bonds of common heritage, and have imagined ourselves into a number of creatively-delineated communities in order to maintain the coherence of our modern states, and of course, the legitimacy of our governments.

It can possibly be argued that the PRC is currently somewhere in the middle of this transition, which is part of the reason why the government feels it can make claims and additions to ‘its history’ that seem absolutely ridiculous to ‘the rest of the world.’ While it’s standard practice to point the blame for the fact that citizens of the PRC currently have very little ‘freedom’ to examine their roles as part of the nation on the more ‘modern ideology’ of the fascist police state (the ability of the people to have the kind of discussions we have here is, put politely, still in its infancy), there may be something far more specific to the current ‘stage’ of the ‘Chinese’ historical experience at work here.

Here’s what I mean: as opposed to the (obviously indefensible) myths of ‘ethnic purity’ officially backed by a number of states historically influenced by ‘China’ --myths created under the pressure of modern nationalisms in an effort to define themselves as ‘not Chinese’ and based on erroneous perceptions of ‘relative homogeneity’-- there is zero case to be made for an unbroken ‘ethnic’ continuity, ‘Han’ or otherwise, in the history of ‘China.’ It is also impossible to argue that a unified political entity has been maintained throughout the entirety of the up to 5,000 years of “Chinese history.” What has existed, though, is a concept of correct governance, of states legitimatized by adherence to ideals that, applied in the right manner, draw the support of the ‘Mandate of Heaven,’ and (this is key) the various civilizations that have developed when states attempted to put these guidelines and historical precedents into practice. Most importantly, these ideas and others have been canonized into a huge number of texts, leading to the extraordinarily lofty position of what is possibly the single most unifying and relatively stable current in “Chinese history”- the written word. When the last few centuries moved in with their enormous social and technological transformations, as well as the total rewrite of ‘Chinese civilization’s’ place in this world, the ‘Han’ as an ethnicity was created as a reaction to the political environment to refer to the people in the more stable parts of the empire and to unify them as the carriers of the various permutations of ‘Chinese civilization.’ As mentioned in many other posts, the term has been used throughout history in a similar -but much more ‘immediately political-’ way, and one of the main differences in the modern usage is that this civilization and these social institutions are now supposedly carried on the chromosomal level.

Since today ‘ethnicity,’ ‘identity,’ ‘cultural heritage,’ ‘race,’ ‘the nation,’ etc, are such crucial concepts for our understanding of the world and ourselves, it is often very difficult for us to conceive of how newly invented these ideas are. A good place to start might be with the realization that ‘Sinification’ was probably a process in which the leaders of independent political entities chose to act within the well-established and influential frameworks we now associate with ‘Chinese civilization,’ which would first and foremost require the adoption of Chinese writing; as opposed to the very different idea of ‘acting like the Han people,’ which was most likely unconceivable at the time.

Otherwise, and the fact that this question is rarely asked and may even come off as completely unthinkable just goes to illustrate the relative uniqueness of the concept of historical ‘China’ among the other modern states, as well as its necessarily ‘multidimensional’ character- but what exactly is the justification for the common understanding that the PRC (which is slightly older than my mother) is entitled to the territory administered by the Tang Empire (618-907)? Or more relevant to the discussion given today’s terms, what connects the PRC to the Qing? Anywhere else on earth, the ‘Jurchen conquest’ of the Ming would most likely be viewed as a signal of the end of one state and the birth of another, but most dominant earlier readings of the ‘Chinese’ historical experience, having absolutely no ‘ethnic’ character, had very little difficulty fitting this ‘Manchu interregnum’ into the narrative.

An interesting effect of the ‘Han = China’ theory is that it takes the above, considerably smoother narrative of ‘Chinese History’ understood as interpretations of an idealized civilization, and smashes it up into total chaos, and by denying ‘real Chineseness’ to the ‘non-Han,’ the ‘Han’ themselves apparently get the short end of huge chunks of ‘their’ history. ‘Chinese Civilization’ is an enormously important part of the human experience that continues to have great ramifications and influence all across the world to this day. Like all nationalist projects, handing this history off to the ‘Han ethnicity’ for safekeeping is a new and temporary thing. Now we get to see how much longer this will last.
Posted Image

#25 General_Zhaoyun

General_Zhaoyun

    Grand Valiant General of Imperial Han Army

  • Admin
  • 12,048 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Singapore (Taiwanese/Singapore Permanent Resident)
  • Interests:Chinese History, Chinese Philosophy and Religion, Chinese languages, Minnan/Taiwanese language, Classical Chinese, General Chinese Culture
  • Languages spoken:Mandarin, Taiwanese (Hokkien), English, German, Singlish
  • Ethnic Groups or Race:Han Chinese (Taiwanese Hoklo)
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    General Chinese Culture
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Chinese Language, History and Culture

Posted 01 February 2005 - 05:00 AM

Tianzhuwoye..your english is very deep..you write like a scholar. I find it hard to understand your argument.. but it's enlightening to have you contribute :lol:
Posted ImagePosted Image

"夫君子之行:靜以修身,儉以養德;非淡泊無以明志,非寧靜無以致遠。" - 諸葛亮

One should seek serenity to cultivate the body, thriftiness to cultivate the morals. If you are not simple and frugal, your ambition will not sparkle. If you are not calm and cool, you will not reach far. - Zhugeliang

#26 浪淘音

浪淘音

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 628 posts

Posted 01 February 2005 - 01:21 PM

Not quite sure. The concept was not a modern western one but a concept of "Han-ness" did exist in ancient times. The distinction between "Han" and "Hu" was neither tribal nor completely cultural (though it was significantly cultural) but come closest to the modern concept of ethnicity. The similar distinction between "Hua Xia" and "Rong Di Man Yi" goes back even earlier and is not totally tribal either. And it's also more than just a political affiliation. The Zhou people called themselves Hua Xia (See Shang Shu) but not Yin Shang, even though both are previous dynasties. It shows that the term "Hua Xia" is certainly by Zhou times very much beyond a simple dynastic title. "Hua Xia" also was neither purely a tribal label nor a cultural label. Compared with purely tribal labels it is too cultural and compared with purely cultural labels it is too tribal. It's actual meaning is somewhere in between. While it isn't strictly the same as the modern concept of ethnicity, IMHO it is very close to it.

What I am curious about though is that how come some people use the concept of "nation" (i.e. ethnicity) quite freely to describe other ancient peoples, such as the Ancient Egyptians and the Hebrews, even though these people had no modern notion of ethnicity either, certainly no more than China did. But when it comes to Chinese people, suddenly everyone refuses to use the concept of "nation" and "ethnicity".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


very true, by the time of the Zhou, the term "Hua Xia" did not refer to the dragon totem worshipping central inland people of prehitory but rather anyone who was considered "Chinese" at the time which included the overwhelming majority of Dong Yi (proto-Chinese coastal tribes)

#27 wuTao

wuTao

    State Undersecretary (Shangshu Lang 尚书郎)

  • Novice Scholar (Tongsheng)
  • 571 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    General Chinese history, Asian history

Posted 01 February 2005 - 02:23 PM

As half-serious examples, Han Wudi never had occasion, nor, presumably, would have felt the need, to go on TV and warn the Zhang Sans and Li Sis of the state “Either you’re with us, or you’re with the barbarians.” The option to go online and discuss personal perceptions of history with people from all over the world was similarly unavailable to the common people, or anybody else at the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's a good post... you make some compelling arguments.

#28 phoenix_bladen

phoenix_bladen

    Imperial Inspector (Jianyushi 监御使)

  • Provincial Governor (EP)
  • 177 posts
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History

Posted 12 March 2005 - 03:25 AM

Considering that Han ethnic group are so diverse in culture, language, and even physical appearance ( yes northern chinese are different then southern chinese generally ) ...... is han even an ethnic group ?

Saying the han (including mandarin, cantonese, fujianese etc) is one ethnic group is like saying english, german, dutch can all be called Germanic ppl and should be under 1 ethnic group called "germanic"

I know this is poltically controversal because if we all chinese believe in unity we should never consider han people SEPARATE..... but when you look realistically, genetically, linguistically, culturally you can start to come to a conclusion....

is Chinese linguistically and ethnically different? Does Han and Chinese langauge even exist? Or is the han and chinese just a broad term and in fact Han does not exist and we are all actually should be grouped ethnically as Cantonese, Hakka, Mandarin, Fukienese....etc so should languages?



I would like to hear some opinions on this....!
Posted Image

#29 tianzhuwoye

tianzhuwoye

    Grand Tutor (Taifu 太傅)

  • Entry Scholar (Xiucai)
  • 334 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Heilongjiang University, Harbin
  • Interests:Northeastern history and historical linguistics, early Qing, Parhae, Koguryeo, Jin Empire, Tungusic languages, the Liao Empire, warring states, An Lushan, "ethnicity" and "race" as non-issues. Also beer, karaoke and fighting nationalism everywhere.
  • Main Interest in CHF:
    Chinese History
  • Specialisation / Expertise:
    Tungusic history, Northeastern history

Posted 12 March 2005 - 03:36 AM

There's a discussion on a similar topic here:
http://www.chinahist...owtopic=609&hl=

The angle is when the Han were invented. Personally I'd say that yes, the Han is an ethnicity by virtue of the fact that at the very least some 1.3 billion people buy into the concept, and there really is no other way to define ethnicity or race outside of social agreement. While the historical, social or 'scientific' grounds that this is based on may be shaky at best, the Han are no more or less of a fabrication than any other ethnic group we could name.

[Yun: This thread has now been merged into the older thread.]
Posted Image

#30 Kulong

Kulong

    Grand Marshal (Da Sima/Taiwei 大司马/太尉)

  • CHF Grand Historian Award
  • 1,487 posts

Posted 12 March 2005 - 04:32 AM

Like others have mentioned, labels such as "ethnic" are artificial.

Ethnic - Of or relating to a sizable group of people sharing a common and distinctive racial, national, religious, linguistic, or cultural heritage.

I'd say the Han ethnic group qualifies for ALL of those characteristics though some may argue about Chinese linguistic... but in any case, the definition clearly states "or" rather than "and".

In any case, I don't believe there is a standard detailed definition of what constitutes an ethnic group. Just from the definition above though, there would be many conflicts among ethnic groups in East Asia alone. For example, most, if not all East Asians are of the same race. Many East Asians are also of the same religion, but at the same time, not everyone in East Asian countries are of a single religion. Language gets even more complicated. Finally, many aspects of East Asian cultures are quite similar. Also, the culture aspect of this will get even more complicated as the world become more and more globalized.
生為中國人,死為中國魂。

"You can believe in any god, as long as it's our God."




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users