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Is Han even an Ethnic Group?


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#331 mohistManiac

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Posted 20 March 2013 - 12:35 AM

Your suppositions in this passage are all unsupported. Huaxia emerged only during the Zhou. There were no Huaxia during the Shang. Dongyi also only emerged during the Zhou. There were no Dongyi during the Shang, and the Shang themselves were not Dongyi. In the Dongyi case it was also an exonym - the peoples referred to as Dongyi did not have a Dongyi identity nor did they call themselves Dongyi. Huaxia however was an endonym created by the elites of the Zhou states to describe themselves. It was not a tribe and there is no evidence whatsoever of a Huaxia under the Shang.

 

As for Liu Bang, there is no evidence that he was Dongyi/Nanman. His ancestors, according to the annotations of the Shiji, migrated to Xuzhou from Henan and were subjects of the State of Wei. You accuse others of mistaking cultural identities for race, yet here you are pretending Dongyi and Nanman are races when they were generic labels for peoples to the east and south of the Zhou and its inner vassals, pretending that Huaxia was a tribe when it was an elite identity among the Zhou states, etc.

 

 

I think you are overlooking the observations for which they are based.  The Huaxia can be interpreted as being emergent from the rise of the Zhou but yet the rise of the Zhou also coincided with the rise of the Rong and Di.  Obviously someone with pen and paper began taking into account all the people but it doesn't mean they weren't there before hand.  Similarly for the Shang, of course they wouldn't call themselves Dongyi because when the term was invented the Shang were not in power but were forcefully laid alongside the Zhou.  The Shang themselves looked to an ancestral claim from Dongyi regardless of who or where their noble house was actually later claimed to have been descended from.


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#332 Eidolon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:38 PM

The Shang never looked to an ancestral claim from Dongyi. Such a claim does not exist in Shang records.


Edited by Eidolon, 18 April 2013 - 09:53 PM.


#333 Korin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:49 PM

Wouldn't Huaxia be from Xia Dynasty since it has xia in it?


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Aeneas was real, because Trojan war happened after founding of Xia and Shang dynasty of China!


#334 Eidolon

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:54 PM

Wouldn't Huaxia be from Xia Dynasty since it has xia in it?

 

Presently speaking, no, because there is no evidence the Xia existed in the form of an ethnonym prior to and during the Shang. Shang oracle records never mention Xia. 



#335 Korin

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 10:15 PM

Presently speaking, no, because there is no evidence the Xia existed in the form of an ethnonym prior to and during the Shang. Shang oracle records never mention Xia. 

 

Why is it called Huaxia then? I still think Xia Dynasty was first, then Shang was second. Three Sovereigns and Five Emperors was the "semi-mythological" kingdoms that is basically real but some people may of not been. 


 I research stuff I like, I enjoy it as a hobby but one day I plan to get a master's degree in something I enjoy a lot.

 

Aeneas was real, because Trojan war happened after founding of Xia and Shang dynasty of China!


#336 ben20092010

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:40 PM

Hi,

 

My Teacher and Friends are Extremely Academic Able and Knowledgable and they had taught Me, that the Modern Han Chinese Peoples of North East, North and Central and Southern China are indeed the Same Tribal Group.

 

Actually the term 'Han is rather Inaccurate, the Descendents of HuaXia are Branded as Han in the Manchu Ching Dynasty.

 

The Peoples from the Han Dynasty were Ancient HuaXia Chinese in their GrandFather Lineage but they were also Genetically Southern Siberian Xianbei in their Grandmothers lineage.

 

In Other words they are Partly Ancient Chinese and Partly Ancient Xianbei Genetically. However the Culture is 100% HuaXia Chinese.

 

However The Term 'Han' is in fact a Hybrid Term of Ancient Han Dynasty Peoples because of their Partically Chinese and Siberian Genetic Identity.

 

My Teacher Told Me, that the Ancient Chinese Peoples were Originally from the Yellow River, Henan Province, in this 2000 years they had Moved to all Parts of China.

 

Although Ancient Chinese Expansion occured as early as 4000-5000 years ago,

 

It is in the Han Dynasty and particularly during the Tang Dynasty where 90% of Ancient Chinese Peoples moved to Central and Southern China Permanently.

 

10% of the the Ancient Chinese Peoples stayed in Northern China, 8% of them are the Ancestors of the Modern Northern Rural Han Chinese.

 

And 2% of them are the Ancestors of the Modern Northern City Chinese Peoples from Areas like Beijing, Shanghai Etc.

 

The 90% of the Han and Tang Dynasty Migrants moved to all Provinces of China, such as Sichuan, Hubei, Hunan, Guizhou, Yunnan, Guangxi, Guangdong, Fujian etc.



#337 rocket7777

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:29 AM

When the Mongols conquered China, they classified the former subjects of the Jin dynasty (including Jurchen, Khitan and northern Han Chinese) as Han people (Hanren 汉人), while classifying the former subjects of the Southern Song as Southerners (Nanren 南人). In terms of status, the "Southerners" were ranked below the "Han people". Does this suggest that even at this time, the people of south China were not considered as being fully Han? And that in contrast, even the sinicised Jurchen were considered to be Han because they lived in north China?

Mongol was northern barbaric tribe origin so they probably have interest in having south inferior.

South is also darker and probably lots mixijng with vietnam, burma etc.

But real irony is everyone is from dark black african, and so called "han" O haplogroup has origin in like burma area.



#338 mohistManiac

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 05:58 AM

Hanzi is the writing of the Han people.  If you didn't have it why would people care about your judgement about who you thought was Han?  What the Mongols were talking about were not Han.  They were talking about Mongolics.


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