337 replies to this topic

[MengTzu]

There's a discussion on a similar topic here:
http://www.chinahist...owtopic=609&hl=

The angle is when the Han were invented. Personally I'd say that yes, the Han is an ethnicity by virtue of the fact that at the very least some 1.3 billion people buy into the concept, and there really is no other way to define ethnicity or race outside of social agreement. While the historical, social or 'scientific' grounds that this is based on may be shaky at best, the Han are no more or less of a fabrication than any other ethnic group we could name.

[Yun: This thread has now been merged into the older thread.]

I'd say the social agreement IS the only scientific reason. Think Durkheimian: Durkheimian suggests that our mental categorization of the world is based on our collective consciousness. Social agreement is itself shaky, but it's the only "real" evidence. All the other ones are almost excuses. They are justifications for a socially accepted phenonmenon.

[nishishei]

If Han ethnicity does not exist, so do many other ethnicities. Think about Mongol, Manchu, English, French, who are they? Are they just nationalities, or ethnicities? Did Manchu even have a nation of Manchus? Where did Mongol come from?

At least Han is older than most modern ethnicities regardless of how Han population got so big. To deny the existence of Han ethncity is to deny the concept of ethncity.

Huh?

English is an ethnicity; Scottish, Irish, Welsh other ethnicities.

How is the Han ethnicity "older than most modern ethnicities", when the entire Communist concept of Han ethnicity didn't even exist until the last century? You are clearly thinking anachronistically and imposing your current concept of Han and Manchu ethnicities (formally defined in modern times) on a timeframe and world without such concepts.

[tianzhuwoye]

The ‘Han Ren’ that the Yuan were referring to tended to be Khitan and Jurchens who adopted sedentary modes of life after establishing the Liao and Jin Empires. Today though, the Khitan and Jurchens are not Han (even if their states were ‘China’), and the Yuan term would now be called ‘Sinicized.’ ‘Han’ is a lifestyle. Today’s definition, like the definitions of all modern ethnicities, is a new one, designed to fit new purposes because things change. Ethnicity is always arbitrary and it’s too bad we don’t stop and think more often about whether or not it’s really worth getting as worked up about it as we sometimes do.

[nishishei]

If you Shanghai people think you are very different from the rest of Chinese, go ahead and call yourself Shanghainese. When Americans call you Chinese, tell them you are not Chinese, but Shanghainese. I know one Hong Kong friend who alway insisted on distancing herself from Chinese. Talk about human psychology!

1. Han Chinese is obviously an ethnicity today. I have said nothing opposing this. What I am against, is your taking our current notion of Han ethnicity and applying it on history, and using it to judge and interpret history. That is unacceptable.

2. Compared to European ethnicities, the notion of a Han Chinese ethnicity is indeed relatively NEW, developed nearly from scratch during the last century, and refined and reinforced by the Communists in the last half century. Prior to that, you'd be hard-pressed to find abundant historical sources of identification to this Han ethnicity. Ethnicities are constantly changed and molded, but the English ethnicity in its modern or near-modern conception is far older than the Han Chinese.

3. To claim as you have done that Han Chinese is the "oldest ethnicity" is, indeed like I have said before, ANACHRONISTIC. You have provided no further evidence for your claim, but instead went on to attack me as a Shanghainese. You want to "talk about human psychology"? then what is your problem?

tianzhuwoye's reply below is very good, I would have written a similar reply, but he beat me to it.

The ‘Han Ren’ that the Yuan were referring to tended to be Khitan and Jurchens who adopted sedentary modes of life after establishing the Liao and Jin Empires. Today though, the Khitan and Jurchens are not Han (even if their states were ‘China’), and the Yuan term would now be called ‘Sinicized.’ ‘Han’ is a lifestyle. Today’s definition, like the definitions of all modern ethnicities, is a new one, designed to fit new purposes because things change. Ethnicity is always arbitrary and it’s too bad we don’t stop and think more often about whether or not it’s really worth getting as worked up about it as we sometimes do.

Just want to add to tianzhuwoye's post that the Yuan hierarchy system was based on geographic proximity and ally-enemy relationships. Those closer to the Mongols were ranked higher than those further away; those unconquered or were last to be conquered were ranked lower.

The idea of ethnicity, though superficially similar in some perspectives, did not exist then and that, Goujian, is my point. I'm not Communist-bashing, nor calling you a 乡下人 (Shaanwonin); there was no reason in bringing either allegations up in your rambling of a post.

We need to be careful not to exclude history and historical context when we talk about ethnicity.

[nishishei]

Nishishei, I think Shanghainese could be an ethnic group if people in Shanghai group together and distance themselves from others. Shanghainese certainly have something in common that is different from others. That can develop into the concept of ethnicity.

On the other hand, country pumpkin (Shawotonin) cannot be an ethnicity thougth we Zhejiang people certainly could be an ethnicity in the future and call ourselves Yue or Wu Yue to differentiate from Ouyue and Nanyue.

On the contrary, I've always felt that if "ethnicity" were to develop, it must be from the countryside, where there is greater sense of belonging to the land, in this case Wu-Yue; an "origin" so to speak for the city dwellers as well. Most Shanghainese today think they have a lot in common with Northern Zhejiang (basically all of Zhejiang excluding Wenzhou/Oujiang region) and Southern Jiangsu; there have always been calls of uniting these regions together along with Shanghai into a new, more culturally homogenous and economically cooperative province. Zhejiang and Jiangsu are both really small relative to other provinces. Currently there is often redundant economic competition between Zhejiang, Jiangsu and Shanghai; the capital gained is not being efficiently utilized. Much wealth produced by southern Jiangsu is currently being squandered by the larger Subei region; and the division of the three regions is a political vulnerability when dealing and negotiating with the rest of China (as evidenced in the 3 highest tax rates in all of China: 1. Shanghai, 2. Jiangsu and 3. Zhejiang since the 1950's with little to no return from the central government).

BTW, Ningbo is hardly rural; it has millions of people.

My whole point is ethnicity is very arbitrary and should be arbitrary because it is human invention for our own interests. I have no problem with you and don't take offense.

Great, because that's my point too.

[Viewer]

Personally, I think ethnic Han was form after the (Raids of 5 northen nomads?) 五胡乱华 era. If you see from Chinese history, during that time, the people in China has just been trough 3 kingdoms area (三国). After Jin (西晋) was formally formed in 280A.D., everyone thought that the peaceful era will begin, but only a few decades later, Jin Dynasty was in civil chaos, which lead to 五胡乱华 era.

Then, the sima (司马) royales fled to JianYe(建业--南京) to continue Jin Dynasty (东晋). But since then, the people in China live in an uncertain time. At the time, land in Northen China is ruled by other ethnic, which are consider outsider races at the times. Then, people start to remember the Han Dynasty. So they start to refer themselves as Han people.

But ethnic Han varies from time to time. For example, during the Sui-Tang (隋唐) era (587-907), people may different themselves as Han and Hu (胡), or maybe even XianBei (鲜卑). During North Song, Han is always refer to Song people, while Liau/QiDan (辽/契丹) is treated as other races. Then it comes NvZhen (女真) that defeat Liau and built Jin Kingdom (金国). At that time, South Song (南宋) and Da Li (大理) is refer as ethnic Han.

When Mongol-Yuan Dynasty (元朝) falls, Ming Dyansty was found by ethnic Han. But this ethnic Han may consists of QiDan, Southern Chinese, Yunnan people, SiChuan, XiXia people, and other ethnic that exists before Mongols conquers most of the Asia.

Then, most of us know that Ching Dynasty (清朝) was found by ethnic NvZhen/Man (女真/满). Although ethnic NvZhen/Man still exists in China, but their language is proclaimed extinct.

As we can see, people in China, descendants from the Warlord era (战国), has regard themselves as Han race (汉族) or Tang people (唐人). This is because of the 2 great Dynasty: Han and Tang.

I'm not sure about Chinese people having any of the so-called "Western concept of race and ethnicity until the 1800's". But my opinion is that they have the non-verbal or the other means of ethnic and race concept.

[somechineseperson]

Is Han even an Ethnic Group?, Or was the Han ethnicity invented?

Technically speaking the statements "Is Han an Ethnic Group" and "Was the han ethnicity invented" are not mutually exclusive. Everything in the Universe is an invention to some extent, including one's own self-identity.