51 replies to this topic

[qrasy]

but Mandarin, Cantonese dialects(including Taishanese) and Japanese prounounce 係 as "Hai" and i know that Hakka and Minnan share some words that are similar because they live right next to each other in Chaoshan region and in southern Fujian.

Only Cantonese read 係 as 'Hai'.
We do have "Hai" in Mandarin and Japanese but they are not the word 係.
For example, 海 is "hai3" in Mandarin and "配" is "hai" in Sino-Japanese, and as for 係 its Sino-Japanese is kei and its Mandarin is xi4

Japanese "hai" is unrelated to Chinese 係, just like English "aye" is unrelated to Chinese.
(The usage of Japanese "hai" is just like English "aye": it can mean "yes" but it can't mean "to be" i.e. "X aye Y" is invalid grammatically.)
Words with h- in Cantonese will be k-/g- in Japanese so they can't be a regular correspondence.
In fact, the words starting with h- in Modern Japanese started with p- in Ancient Japanese, we can see that even in Sino-Japanese: 八 is hatsu not patsu 変 is hen and not pen.

they do have the final -k consonant like the word "Country" is pronounced as Koku.

A simple way to say it is that "koku" ends with "u", not "k".
So the "k" did survive, but not as an ending.

And the initial n- like the word Japan = Nip Pon (Ngit Pon in Taishanese Canto), Person = Nin (Ngin in Taishanese Canto) and the number 2 = Ni (Ngi in Taishanese Canto).

There's nothing special with having "n-" initial. It's common across the world.

Edited by qrasy, 21 January 2009 - 09:40 AM.

[lifezard]

The R and Y are not usually mixed-up in Beijing Mandarin, so they have to be kept separate through the evolution.
e.g. Rang4 讓 Yang4 樣

good to see u again..

regarding the mandarin 'r' i realised that it is actually present even among some southern and central dialects...

quite a number have 'r-' for standard mandarin 'yu-'

I think this is not Sichuanese. If I recall correctly, Deng Xiaoping used something like "Gue".

I hear 今年 as usual, not "Gim Nen" as you mentioned.

my take is while she s speaking mandarin, she was probably quite guangdong hakka influenced at least...

a) 和平 she pronounced as fo (low) ping (low) sounds characteristically mexian which tends to pronunce 和 as 'fo' and yang pings in low tone

两次 she pronunced as "liong ci" , 'liong' can be yue or hakka

c)善良 she pronounced as “sen liong" which is rather hakka too

d)祝愿 she pronounced as “zhu yen"

i agree its not sichuanese too

Edited by lifezard, 21 January 2009 - 11:51 AM.

[qrasy]

regarding the mandarin 'r' i realised that it is actually present even among some southern and central dialects...

quite a number have 'r-' for standard mandarin 'yu-'

I don't know if I'm wrong, but I found that there is that 'r' in Dabu Hakka.
文讀 of 雨 sounds like Mandarin ri (i.e. /ʐ/).
Of course, we don't have 白讀 of the same character as we use "落水" instead.

There is 'rh' in a romanization scheme for Hailu Hakka but I don't know what sound it actually refer to.

[babyblue]

they do have the final -k consonant like the word "Country" is pronounced as Koku. And the initial n- like the word Japan = Nip Pon (Ngit Pon in Taishanese Canto), Person = Nin (Ngin in Taishanese Canto) and the number 2 = Ni (Ngi in Taishanese Canto).

That's EXACTLY what I just explained! That's another syllable created to simulate the Chinese "kok" sound. When it becomes "ko-ku", it's not a final stop sound anymore, it becomes another syllable.

[lifezard]

I don't know if I'm wrong, but I found that there is that 'r' in Dabu Hakka.
文讀 of 雨 sounds like Mandarin ri (i.e. /ʐ/).
Of course, we don't have 白讀 of the same character as we use "落水" instead.

There is 'rh' in a romanization scheme for Hailu Hakka but I don't know what sound it actually refer to.

if u have a chance to receive taiwan s hakka tv channel, you will have a chance to hear it with hailu accent programs -- a very obvious one 桃园 is pronounced "thou ren", its similar to mandarin 'r' but slightly more rhotic i feel.

[Andy Lau]

係 is not only pronounced by Cantonese, but also Taishanese Cantonese, which preserve alot of old chinese vocabulary from Middle Chinese(besides Hakka). I asked my Mandarin friend again, who is of Nanjing origin and says he pronounces 係 as "Hai". I think 係 was originally pronounced as "Hai' in middle chinese and not "hei" as the "ei" vowel was not present in Middle Chinese, instead rather "i" vowel or "ai". If you look at any sino-influenced languages like korean (which is the best example of the other 2; japanese and vietnamese), they don't have the "ei" vowel in their vocabulary.

Another thing that is interesting is that the word "shoes" is pronounced as "Hai" in South-western Mandarin and also locals of Shanxi province.. and not "Xue" which is only used in Beijing Mandarin and surrounding provinces like Hebei. While Cantonese dialects like Taishanese, Guangzhou Cantonese, etc still pronounce "shoes" as "Hai". I wonder if hakka or minnan pronounce "shoes" as "hai"?

Edited by Andy Lau, 08 February 2009 - 01:54 AM.

[qrasy]

係 is not only pronounced by Cantonese, but also Taishanese Cantonese, which preserve alot of old chinese vocabulary from Middle Chinese(besides Hakka). I asked my Mandarin friend again, who is of Nanjing origin and says he pronounces 係 as "Hai".

This is irregular thing. It might be influenced by Cantonese if he had lived there long enough, or it might be another pronunciation misheard.

I think 係 was originally pronounced as "Hai' in middle chinese and not "hei" as the "ei" vowel was not present in Middle Chinese

How do you know that the "ei" doesn't exist in Middle Chinese?
Just compare with like a Mandarin speaker guessing that "s" doesn't exist in Taishanese just because because all the "s" in Mandarin corresponds to "sl".

If Modern -ei is derived from ancient -i, that doesn't mean all the -ei has to come from i.
Consider a scenario, if it's ei->ai followed by i->ei.

If you look at any sino-influenced languages like korean (which is the best example of the other 2; japanese and vietnamese), they don't have the "ei" vowel in their vocabulary.

Japanese DO have the "ei", I think I have posted before that 係 has a reading of "kei".
http://en.wiktionary...ry.org/wiki/ä¿‚

Another thing that is interesting is that the word "shoes" is pronounced as "Hai" in South-western Mandarin and also locals of Shanxi province.. and not "Xue" which is only used in Beijing Mandarin and surrounding provinces like Hebei. While Cantonese dialects like Taishanese, Guangzhou Cantonese, etc still pronounce "shoes" as "Hai". I wonder if hakka or minnan pronounce "shoes" as "hai"?

Hakka has it as "hai".
"Xue1" is 靴. 鞋 is "Xie2"

I wonder though, if "靴" is pronounced as "Hia" in Taishanese.

Edited by qrasy, 10 February 2009 - 02:58 AM.

[Andy Lau]

my taishanese isn't fluent, but i asked a friend from facebook and says 靴 is pronounced as Hia in Taishanese, with a mid tone and rhymes with 車. Why do you ask? is it because Hakka also pronounces 靴 as Hia as well? lol

But Taishanese(including other Sze Yap dialects) is a very interesting Cantonese dialect that preserves quite alot of Middle Chinese words, just like Hakka. For example: Ngit = Day, Ngout = Month or Moon, Ngin or Nyin = Person, Syang (but Siong in Hakka) = Up, Ha = Down, Hiang Gong = Hong Kong, Zhong Mun = Chinese, Mi Gok = United States, Fi Gi = Airplane, Sui = Water, and so on...

I wonder if any other Cantonese dialect has this much preservation of Middle Chinese words? i know Guangzhou Cantonese went through alot of evolution that made it different from Hakka and Taishanese.

Edited by Andy Lau, 10 February 2009 - 03:27 PM.

[qrasy]

Just compare with like a Mandarin speaker guessing that "s" doesn't exist in Taishanese just because because all the "s" in Mandarin corresponds to "sl".

There are actually many closer examples.
One such is that /s/ exists in Taishanese but it's derived from earlier sh.
But that doesn't mean that earlier Chinese also had /s/; it's just become 'yet another sound', "sl".

with a mid tone and rhymes with 車.

I thought 車 would be mapped to che.
"Chia" is more like Hakka.
This would make 杜牧's《山行》have 1-2-4 rhyme in it.

is it because Hakka also pronounces 靴 as Hia as well? lol

Minnan is Hia, Sixian Hakka is Hio.
Seems like Taishanese vs Hakka has ia vs io.
That includes word like 香, 上.

But Taishanese(including other Sze Yap dialects) is a very interesting Cantonese dialect that preserves quite alot of Middle Chinese words, just like Hakka.

The way you put it is not strict enough. "Keeping the word" can mean that the word is still there instead of replaced with unrelated thing (while distorting the pronunciations). Whether the pronunciation is also preserved is yet another thing.

Among some other SzeYap dialects I have seen, many changes vowel, making it a bit more similar to Cantonese.
For example, in 開平, if I recall correctly 緊 gen not gin (e as in 'her').
人日 would be ngen nget.
孫 is slin not slun. (Similar to Greek change of upsilon: u->ü->i).

[Andy Lau]

yeah.. i just asked my dad and in Taishanese 靴 is Hia. But in standard cantonese, they say something else.. they say "Her". So i guess Taishanese preserve more of middle chinese than Standard Cantonese then ?

I am just curious, is it normal that when:
there is a "s" in Mandarin, it is a "sl" in Taishanese
there is a "sh" in Mandarin, it is a "s" in Taishanese

the 2 chinese dialects distinguish the 2 using either "s" or "sh" in Mandarin AND "sl" or "s" in Taishanese. But while in Standard Cantonese, it's all "s".... who is conservative?

Edited by Andy Lau, 11 February 2009 - 01:27 AM.

[lifezard]

I thought 車 would be mapped to che.
"Chia" is more like Hakka.
This would make 杜牧's《山行》have 1-2-4 rhyme in it.

hakka should be "cha"

Minnan is Hia, Sixian Hakka is Hio.
Seems like Taishanese vs Hakka has ia vs io.
That includes word like 香, 上.

not sure u quoting literary form or venacular form here for minnan.. 鞋 should be "eh" or "ue" in venacular form(former should be zhangzhou and latter quanzhou) , the 'h' is lost like 下 "eh"

[qrasy]

Comparing to Taishanese "多謝" I would expect Taishanese 車 to be "che". Unless it's different part of Taishan.

yeah.. i just asked my dad and in Taishanese 靴 is Hia. But in standard cantonese, they say something else.. they say "Her". So i guess Taishanese preserve more of middle chinese than Standard Cantonese then ?

If I recall correctly, it had rounded, Grade III rhyme that rhymes with 戈, making it something like *hwia.
I don't know if a syllable like /hwia/ is found in modern Chinese, but Vietnamese has the word "khuya" and can surely pronounce "huya".
(Baxter reconstruct it as xjwa, though, putting j-w in different order and using that h is like in Pinyin, i.e. pronounced more like [x], he use the symbol h for another sound and not [h])

I am just curious, is it normal that when:
there is a "s" in Mandarin, it is a "sl" in Taishanese
there is a "sh" in Mandarin, it is a "s" in Taishanese

That is the normal case. And for some words the Mandarin has x because s(i) and h(i) merged into x(i).

And above can be compared to the ai/ei correspondence thing.
when it's "ei" in Taicheng, it's "i" in Dabu
when it's "ai" in Taicheng, it's "ei" in Dabu

the 2 chinese dialects distinguish the 2 using either "s" or "sh" in Mandarin AND "sl" or "s" in Taishanese. But while in Standard Cantonese, it's all "s".... who is conservative?

In this aspect, the most conservative ones (with respect to Middle Chinese) use 3 kinds of s. e.g. 思詩師 all have different initials.
In Vietnamese the Chinese words have this kind of difference, even though 2 of them is transformed to be not so similar to s or sh. They start with t, th, and s (s is pronounced sh) respectively.
And in Chinese, I found some Shandong dialects to have this distinction.

not sure u quoting literary form or venacular form here for minnan.. 鞋 should be "eh" or "ue" in venacular form(former should be zhangzhou and latter quanzhou)

I am quoting a dictionary for 靴. I only found "uê" for 鞋.

hakka should be "cha"

This one is another evidence that rolled sound is likely to have occured in Hakka. (I found 傷 song not siong).
"chia" is more Minnan.

the 'h' is lost like 下 "eh"

"h" is often lost for originally voiced initial (middle Chinese category 匣母 not 曉母). Sometimes it corresponds to "k", though.

[Andy Lau]

Car is pronounced as "Chia" but the "ia" is pronounced so fast you almost don't hear it.
You can hear how 車 is pronounced in this song:

"In this aspect, the most conservative ones (with respect to Middle Chinese) use 3 kinds of s. e.g. 思詩師 all have different initials."

My dad says 思 = Slu, 詩 = Si, 師 = Slu.

So if "sh" (Shui = Water) did not exist and it should be "s" (Sui = Water), then the "x" (Xiao = Little) and "s" (San = Three) in Mandarin should have been originally what initial consonant in Middle Chinese?

In Taishanese, mandarin "sh" is "s".. so that we know Taishanese is conservative on. But initial consonant "x" and "s" is "sl" in Taishanese; Xiao -> Sliu and San -> Slam. Is Taishanese conservative on that ? did initial consontant "sl" exist in Middle Chinese?

Guangzhou Cantonese and Hakka both have initial consonant "s" for all of mandarin "sh", "x" and "s"; Example[Gz Canto]: Shui -> Soi, Xiao -> Siu, San -> Sam.

Edited by Andy Lau, 12 February 2009 - 12:25 AM.

[qrasy]

You can hear how 車 is pronounced in this song:

[off-topic] Who sang this song? Why add all the "d-"? And then, 待 also belonged to d initial.
And then, isn't it Hong Kong Cantonese habit to add "ng" to 握 is ak.
I found the "sl" out of my expectation (compared to previous experience).
I also guessed wrong for the pronunciation of "淚般" etc.

My dad says 思 = Slu, 詩 = Si, 師 = Slu.

From the Vietnamese it's obvious that the 3 are quite distinguishable.
But exactly which 3 is arguable. I can distinguish /s/ /ɕ/ /ʂ/ /ʃ/ /ç/ (all of them sound quite like s). But as (I guess) Shandongnese use /ç/ already for hy, it should be among /s/ /ɕ/ /ʂ/ /ʃ/.
Not sure if it can also be /θ/ or /ɬ/.

We know that the "flattest" one was the first one, 思, and the "harshest" one was 詩, as we know that they become "s" and "sh" in both Hailu Hakka and Mandarin.
First one -> Taishan sl, Mandarin s, Vietnamese t
Second one -> Taishan s, Mandarin sh, Vietnamese th
Third one -> Taishan/Mandarin split into the previous 2. Vietnamese s (sh).
examples: 森色所師霜沙山衫姗生筲澀殺虱衰使

Somehow the first 2 types are more common than the 3rd one.
One predictable "discrepancy" between Mandarin and Taishan is that if the vowel is "i" (non-入) then it's Mandarin sh but s in Hailu Hakka and sl in Taishanese. Just from it, we can guess that it does not belong to first 2 types.

Taishan: 思 = Slu, 詩 = Si, 師 = Slu
Mandarin: 思 = S, 詩 = Sh, 師 = Sh (i is deleted after s and sh)
Hailu Hakka: 思 = S, 詩 = Shi, 師 = S (if I recall correctly)

士事 also have this kind of "discrepancy", but this is from 全濁 instead of 全清.
From here we can see that 全濁 also had 3-way distinction.

So if "sh" (Shui = Water) did not exist and it should be "s" (Sui = Water), then the "x" (Xiao = Little) and "s" (San = Three) in Mandarin should have been originally what initial consonant in Middle Chinese?

In older form of Mandarin, 小 was like siau and 曉 more like hiau, but both became "xiao". This is why we have splitting when comparing with Southeastern dialects.

Edited by qrasy, 12 February 2009 - 05:00 AM.

[Andy Lau]

is it possible that Hong Kong's famous lazy "l" was due to Minnan influence(particularily from Teochiu)? Some examples are Neen -> Leen = (Year), Noi -> Loi (girl), Nei -> Lei (you) and so on. I know in Hokkien some initial "n" becomes initial "l" like the word "you" = Li

What do you think?