51 replies to this topic

[Andy Lau]

another thing is that the Teochiu is a pretty huge community in Hong Kong after the Guangzhou/Samyap (around 40%) and Sze Yap(around 30%) regional groups. An example is that the richest man in HK is Li Ka Shing of Chiu Chow origin (Teochiu). So perhaps the lazy "l" in Hong Kong Cantonese can be the result of a slight Minnan influence ?

I heard that there is a Hong Konger of Taishan origin that is one of the top ten richest person in hk, who owns Hong Kong Hang Lung Group and Hang Lung Properties, named Ronnie Chan(陳啟宗) ^^

Edited by Andy Lau, 15 February 2009 - 02:11 AM.

[qrasy]

is it possible that Hong Kong's famous lazy "l" was due to Minnan influence(particularily from Teochiu)?

Yeah, it's quite likely as in Minnan the l/n are sometimes swapped around compared to Cantonese, an example of the reverse is 蓮 with n.
But perhaps because of dilligence, some Chaozhou people in Hong Kong I knew distinguish n/l much better than the average.

Hong Kong dialects of Zhuang and Hakka seem to have n/l confusion as well, even though in many other places they don't mix n with l.
The Guangxi Zhuang romanization obviously contains n-, but one online video comparing some words in Cantonese with Zhuang, the Zhuang version have l instead of n!
for example, it list Cantonese nam (think) and Zhuang lam (or l+something else+m).

another thing is that the Teochiu is a pretty huge community in Hong Kong after the Guangzhou/Samyap (around 40%) and Sze Yap(around 30%) regional groups.

I heard that it's actually 1/6 of Hong Kong.

I heard that there is a Hong Konger of Taishan origin that is one of the top ten richest person in hk, who owns Hong Kong Hang Lung Group and Hang Lung Properties, named Ronnie Chan(陳啟宗) ^^

I have met him personally and if I recall correctly he pronounced some n as l, too.

[Andy Lau]

so i guess your saying that cantonese groups (guangzhou, samyap, szeyap aka Taishan area) cannot distinguish the n and l... while the non-cantonese groups like Zhuang and Teochiu can ?

I doubt that, because in Guangzhou and in Taishan.. we don't confuse the 2. In Taishanese we always pronounce initial consonant n- and never l-. Same in Guangzhou Cantonese, they usually pronounce the initial n- and never l- (unless a lil' influence due to watching HK media). So the lazy l- which is found predominantly in HK, could be a cause from Minnan speakers or another source? perhaps media ?

[qrasy]

so i guess your saying that cantonese groups (guangzhou, samyap, szeyap aka Taishan area) cannot distinguish the n and l... while the non-cantonese groups like Zhuang and Teochiu can ?

Kind of the story of the race between turtle and the rabbit and the turtle wins, nobody is saying that the turtle is faster and the rabbit is slower. But the rabbit just don't use their ability to the full extent.

It can be that they just accepted what is deemed "the local language" because it's similar enough to their language, and did not pursue phonetic exactness.
I am not saying Hong Kong Zhuang can distinguish them, but those in Guangxi can.

I am also guessing that probably they learn from the wrong source; I saw that your earlier post on Cantonese uses the l- in the place of n-.
I often learn Cantonese from dictionary pronunciations and patterns, perhaps more so than directly listening. So I know which ones have ng and which ones don't, while Hong Kong people don't usually use dictionaries. That doesn't imply that my Cantonese is better than them, though.

edit: btw, this thread should be more towards Writing System instead of phonology, I think you should consider posting in another thread.

Edited by qrasy, 16 February 2009 - 12:13 PM.

[Andy Lau]

I found a Taishanese song on youtube:

This version of Taishanese i think is Taicheng Taishanese as you can see as 地 is pronounced as "ei" instead of "i". Similar to Guangzhou Cantonese Dei, but without the "d". But awkwardly there is no initial consonant "sl" in 想 nor 心 for example, so i don't know what type of Taishanese this is =/

Oddly this Taishanese song had the "ei" vowel, but has the initial consonant "sl" so this must be Taicheng Taishanese

Here is a map of where the "i" vs "ei" vowel is used predominantly


From what my friends tell me... it sounds like a mix of Mandarin and Guangzhou Cantonese. But it's just Taishanese to me lol But what i want to know is if the word 不 in middle chinese pronounced as Butt(like in Guangzhou Cantonese) or But (like in Taishanese) ? In Mandarin, it is pronounced similar to Taishanese "But" but without the final consonant -t (so Bu).

Edited by Andy Lau, 17 February 2009 - 01:12 AM.

[Andy Lau]

Most Taishanese usually pronounce the "i" vowel like in this song ^^ -> NB: Your right qrasy, 待 belongs to initial consonant "d", i didn'T see it. I will have to add it when i have time

Could the "ei" vowel be a Guangzhou Cantonese influence onto Taishanese ? Because it seems only the part of Taishan that uses the "ei" vowel geographically is closer to Guangzhou, than the other parts of Taishan.

Edited by Andy Lau, 17 February 2009 - 01:31 AM.

[qrasy]

You sang the song yourself, right? I think the loss of d is part of the dialect, not a kind of modern distortion.
Kind of, if I revive the consonants of Middle Chinese in Mandarin (consonant only, not vowel or grammar), it will sound un-Mandarin.

But awkwardly there is no initial consonant "sl" in 想 nor 心 for example, so i don't know what type of Taishanese this is =/

Probably it's a variant closer to Hokshan 鶴山?
Another thing to notice 甜 is hiam not hiem

Oddly this Taishanese song had the "ei" vowel, but has the initial consonant "sl" so this must be Taicheng Taishanese

I think some of the sl are not pronounced clear enough (e.g. 想). It might be just the quality of the audio, though.
It has a bit of difference from Taicheng in that 力 sounds more like Cantonese lik than "let".

Here is a map of where the "i" vs "ei" vowel is used predominantly

There is no "red" in this picture, only grey

From what my friends tell me... it sounds like a mix of Mandarin and Guangzhou Cantonese. But it's just Taishanese to me lol

It's probably true in view of people who only knows those 2 languages. If they know Hakka as well, probably they will think of more half Hakka and half Cantonese.

But what i want to know is if the word 不 in middle chinese pronounced as Butt(like in Guangzhou Cantonese) or But (like in Taishanese) ? In Mandarin, it is pronounced similar to Taishanese "But" but without the final consonant -t (so Bu).

Indeed it seems that Mandarin only lost the ending -t. Do remember that most Cantonese vowels are distorted when compared to the rest of Chinese, even the Middle Chinese.

Could the "ei" vowel be a Guangzhou Cantonese influence onto Taishanese ? Because it seems only the part of Taishan that uses the "ei" vowel geographically is closer to Guangzhou, than the other parts of Taishan.

Perhaps.
One other thing that I notice is the pronunciation of 危 and 魏 as ngai instead of ngui and is definitely because of Guangzhou. Does it happen further South?
Another thing is that "牛 ngau" look is imported from Guangzhou as it doesn't rhyme with the -iu words anymore.

Edited by qrasy, 17 February 2009 - 08:38 AM.