21 replies to this topic

[Bao Pu]

hello

I read that there existed a matriarchical society in China in ancient times. What evidence is there for this?

thanks

[General_Zhaoyun]

What does "matriarchy" means? Sorry.. my english is not good.

[Gubook Janggoon]

What does "matriarchy" means? Sorry.. my english is not good.

Society ruled by women.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Society ruled by women.

Oh.. now I understand.. yes, ancient chinese society was ruled by women. This goes back to neolithic tool age society (before Xia and Shang dynasty) around 5000-3000 BC.
In chinese, matriachy is called "Mu Xi Shi Zhu 母系氏族".

[Bao Pu]

Oh.. now I understand.. yes, ancient chinese society was ruled by women. This goes back to neolithic tool age society (before Xia and Shang dynasty) around 5000-3000 BC.
In chinese, matriachy is called "Mu Xi Shi Zhu 母系氏族".

Hi General
What I'd like to know is HOW do we know ancient Chinese society was ruled by women? What evidence do we have?

thanks

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hi General
What I'd like to know is HOW do we know ancient Chinese society was ruled by women? What evidence do we have?

thanks

I think, it was recorded in "Shiji" or some other ancient chinese history texts that 'the people only know their mother and not their father' (但知其母，不知其父). From this, we could derive that that period of time (5000-2500 BC) was a female-dominant society instead of a male-dominant one.

For instance, chinese legend has it that the Bao-Xi Clan's mother encountered a "Big man" and become pregnant, Shennong Clan's mother felt the power of a dragon-god and became pregnant, Ying Qie's mother ate a sparrow egg and become pregnant.

How come all these legend mentions about mother and no-one mentions about 'father'? Legends were constructed from people's memory and passed down by words of mouth, because during pre-historic times, there was no writing. However, the fact that people only remember their mother suggest that their clan and blood lineage was based on 'mother' and not father.

At that time, people still do not know how female will get pregnant. They do not know it was the guy that will cause a girl to get pregnant. When they get pregnant, they thought it was the power of god given to a female. Thus they thought the heaven ordain this female to give birth to pass offspring and thus she become 'more important' and become the ruler.

For more info, read the chinese article at

http://61.180.188.27.....ð&SpecialID=0

Take note that current archaeological discovery of matriarchy society such as Banpo culture, Yangshao Culture, Hemudu culture are beginning to reveal more info about the society at this time. Unfortunately, I do not know well-enough to inform you about any achaeological evidence. I suggest you to read more achaeological info regarding these neolithic tool age culture.

[Bao Pu]

Thanks General Zhaoyun

re: "the fact that people only remember their mother suggest that their clan and blood lineage was based on 'mother' and not father."

-- Yes, this seems plausible. It could also be possible that the reason they only knew their mothers was because men produced offspring from many wives, and only the mother stayed with the children to raise them. But I think I like your theory better.

re: "At that time, people still do not know how female will get pregnant. They do not know it was the guy that will cause a girl to get pregnant."

-- This theory is been discarded/discredited by most anthropologists. Animal husbandry existed long prior to the time period we are discussing. Ethnologist Desmond Morris wrote:

"Although sexual ignorance provides an appealing interpretation of the dominance of the female deity [Mother Goddess], the facts do not support this. Sexual knowledge must have been commonplace from the beginning of the agricultural revolution 10,000 years ago, since by then the true meaning of copulation had become widely understood as part of primitive animal husbandry. Without this knowledge the selective breeding of livestock would have been impossible."

He goes on to mention that the oldest writing from ancient Sumer (4000 years ago) is very explicit about the male depositing semen into the female in order to produce offspring.

In the hunter-gatherer era of human beings, men and women were equals, each with their specific duties. Many cultures also went through matriarchical periods and most finished with patriarchies. In the West in the last century, obviously Equality is back in vogue.

Still, I do NOT find it difficult to believe there was a matriarchical society in ancient China. I will look for more information.

thank You

[hansioux]

Early Centerians were Matriarchal and this can be seen from the Pre-Qin family name system.

Family names used to be taken from the mother, instead of the father.

A person would have a family name, and a clan name, however the clan name was just that, name of the clan.

By the time of Zhou, when clan names are starting to lose meannings with the forming of cities states the family name system started to shift.

By the time of warring states, people started taking on the name of their city state, or their lost city state as their last names.

Only a few Matriarchal last names survived:

姜 Jiang, 姚 Yao and so on.


In Taiwan, the aboriginals are Matriarchal.

[Bao Pu]

Early Centerians were Matriarchal and this can be seen from the Pre-Qin family name system. Family names used to be taken from the mother, instead of the father. A person would have a family name, and a clan name, however the clan name was just that, name of the clan.

By the time of Zhou, when clan names are starting to lose meannings with the forming of cities states the family name system started to shift.

By the time of warring states, people started taking on the name of their city state, or their lost city state as their last names.

Thanks Hansioux

I have read about the etymology for the word for "surname" suggesting Matrilineal basis, but that it is "far from conclusive." But I did not know the details regarding the family names in ancient Zhongguo - thanks.

Is there any book or article you might suggest I read to learn more? What are your sources? Anything in English?

[hansioux]

Thanks Hansioux

I have read about the etymology for the word for "surname" suggesting Matrilineal basis, but that it is "far from conclusive." But I did not know the details regarding the family names in ancient Zhongguo - thanks. 

Is there any book or article you might suggest I read to learn more? What are your sources? Anything in English?

hmm... my sources are normally in traditional Han writting.

Look out for last names with 女 (female) in it. These are the original last names.

For example, famous early Han adviser 張良 (Zhang Liang), used to be a Zhou noble therefore his realy last name was 姬.

[Bao Pu]

Hello again

re: "hmm... my sources are normally in traditional Han writting."

-- That's too bad , I will have to look myself.

re: "Look out for last names with 女 (female) in it. These are the original last names."

-- By "original" you mean "older" right?

[hansioux]

Hello again

re: "hmm... my sources are normally in traditional Han writting."

-- That's too bad  , I will have to look myself.

re: "Look out for last names with 女 (female) in it. These are the original last names."

-- By "original" you mean "older" right?

I meant original. Since now they are almost all replaced by the later clan names.

[Bao Pu]

Early Centerians were Matriarchal and this can be seen from the Pre-Qin family name system. Family names used to be taken from the mother, instead of the father.

Hi

I've just learned that what you describe is not matriarchy, but matrilineal.

matrilineal: Relating to, based on, or tracing ancestral descent through the maternal line.

matriarchy: A social system in which the mother is head of the family; a family, community, or society based on this system or governed by women.

In Jennifer W. Jay's journal article entitled "Imagining Matriarchy: "Kingdoms of Women" in Tang China" she adds, "An additional condition defining a matriarchy is that power and authority be exercised by the women in decisions concerning community and foreign relations, social standards and values, including the sexual conduct of the men."

From these definitions, simply having maternal family names does not constitue a matriarchical society.

I have also learned that Marxist-Leninist teaching has had alot to do with understanding of matriarchies.

I will keep looking, and post any further findings. Perhaps others may have something to add.

[Bao Pu]

Greetings

Okay, I would like to add some further things I have learned. I have just finished reading Women in Ancient China by Anne Behnke Kinney from the book Women's Roles in Ancient Civilizations: A Reference Guide 1999. here is some finding regarding women in ancient times in China:

In the Neolithic period, "In contrast to the general egalitarianism that is suggested by evidence from early Neolithic burials, in terms of both wealth and gender, much mid- and late-Neolithic mortuary evidence points to (1) the sexual segregation of labor; (2) the inferior social status of women in relation to men; and (3) the inclusion of women as the focus of ritual activity in ancestral cults."

"In a significant number of Neolithic sites, male skeletons greatly outnumber- female skeletons. This may point to female infanticide, to better care provided for male rather than female children, or at least to a cultural context in which the burial of women did not warrant the same ritual attention given to men ... Many Chinese scholars, basing their ideas on Marxist theories of social evolution, have argued for the existence of a matriarchy in China's pre-historic past. However, recent scholarship suggests that by late Neolithic times, women's status in China may have declined. The greater number of graves and grave goods for males than for females suggests that social structures were becoming increasingly male dominated, and increasing differences between rich and poor burials suggest that discrepancies between a powerful, wealthy elite and more ordinary folk were widening."

"Finally, there is a significant discovery in one Neolithic settlement that was part of the so-called "Hongshan culture" centered in western Liaoning province and eastern Inner Mongolia, ca. 4000-2500 B.C.F. A temple complex excavated there contained fragments of a life-sized terracotta statue of a young woman or goddess, as well as small "Venus" statues-- clay figurines portraying rotund, sometimes pregnant, women. Like similar statues of great antiquity found throughout Europe, the precise function and significance of the Chinese specimens remain unknown, though it is probable that these figurines were linked to fertility rites."

With regards to the Shang Dynasty and its records, it appears fairly patriarchical. In the oracle bones (jiaguwen), of the 700 personal names, only 170 are female. (A noteworthy powerful female is Fu Hao, the consort of the Shang king Wu Ding.)

It seems that if there was a matriarchial society in ancient "China" we have yet to find evidence for it. Possibly in the early Neolithic period (i.e. 10,000-5000 BCE). Again, if anyone has more to offer, please do. I hope no one will think of me as biased against the existence of an ancient Chinese matriarchical society, because, if anything, I was hoping to verify its existence.

[jwrevak]

hello 

I read that there existed a matriarchical society in China in ancient times. What evidence is there for this?

thanks

Frequently I am unimpressed with supposed proof of matriarchal societies in prehistory. To me it often appears weak.

Nevertheless here is as brief quote from An Outline History of China, Bai Shouyi, ed.:

"Some 6,000 to 7,000 years ago, clans and tribes, big and small, were scattered across China. . . . There was the Yanshao culture in the middle reaches of the Huanghe (Yellow River) and the Majiayao culture on its upper reaches. . . .

"The Banpo site is a typical clan settlement. . . .

"Women enjoyed a high status in the clan. . . . The custom of burying the females in the centre prevailed in some places: dozens of joint matriarchal clan graves have been discovered at Yuangunmiao, Huaxian County, and Hengzhen Village, Huayin County, in Shaanxi Province. . . . The burial custom, with the women at the centre, is one reflecton of the important position women occupied in the clans. But what is more, at the Banpo site and at the Jiangzhai site in Linton County in Shaanxi, the buried objects accompanying the females generally outnumbered those of the males. This is further demonstration that the women's social status was high."

However, does this mean there was a genuine matriarchal government or society? I have my doubts.