11 replies to this topic

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

Check out these 2 gentlemen, specialists on Chinese warfare:

http://www.arts.mcgi...culty/yates.htm

http://www.ralphsawyer.com/bio.htm

Robin Yates is teaching at McGill University in Canada and is currently working on forthcoming "Science and Civilization in China" volume on cavalry tactics and techniques etc... He was previously, the co-author with the late Joseph Needham on another volume where he contributed to city wall designs and siege warfare etc...

Whereas the well-known Ralph Sawyer works in his own consultancy firm and is working on "Irregular and Unexpected: Unorthodox Warfare in China" and the multi-volume "History of Warfare in China"....

In an email sometime back, Ralph gave a glimpse of a rather interesting perspective with regards to swordsmanship during the Warring States period:

"We have actually finished the section on swords in the Shang through Warring States and done some fighting experiments with the lengths attested by archaeological finds, arriving at a rather different view of combat methods than the traditional sources indicate..."

I think many of us are eagerly awaiting the publication of their books...

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Another Western scholar who is prominent in the field of Chinese Science in general is Nathan Sivin of the University of Pennsylvania:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~nsivin/

He has an interesting biblio page:
http://ccat.sas.upen...vin/scimed.html

[Kenneth]

Hi Thomas,
I have had mixed results enquiring about the specifics of Shang 'swords' despite finding a few references to Shang swords of bronze in texts.
The earliest authentic sword I have been able to find images of is a late Western ZHou iron blade sword with only the hilt of jade being intact.
I have found an unidentified image of a SHang sword of about 38cm length, kind of like a cleaver in appearance, as well as other hafted Shang slashing weapons (not dagger-axes). I have had some weapons collectors comment the sword only comes into use in CHina during Spring & Autumn, but clearly there are rare earlier examples.
I think the confusion might be when a 'knife' becomes a 'sword' as even a final answer on the definition of each is hard to find.
I am interested on your thoughts, or if you have any images of real archeaological examples of the type refered to above.

This sword below may be authentic Shang blade, but without specifics I am unsure where it came from or if this counts as a sword at this early time.
I hope to find some answers to such questions when I am in Shaanxi in May.

[Kenneth]

oh....the image isn't off an e-bay site either, so it should be real bronze.
The odd serration look on this piece I have seen on other fakes though so maybe this item has inspired some of the designs of fake Shang swords that are for sale.

[Thomas Chen]

oh....the image isn't off an e-bay site either, so it should be real bronze.
The odd serration look on this piece I have seen on other fakes though so maybe this item has inspired some of the designs of fake Shang swords that are for sale.

The picture of the cleaver with the serrated back reminds me of the Rambo knife in Rambo II ... This cleaver in the picture belongs to the Shanghai Museum and is dated late Shang.

RE: The earliest authentic sword I have been able to find images of is a late Western ZHou iron blade sword with only the hilt of jade being intact...

Yes, I am familiar with that one...

There was this book on Chinese jians, "longquan shuangxue"... that features a picture of probably one of the earliest bronze daggers - precursor to swords - I have come across, dated Western Zhou... I will scan and post it if I have the time...
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On a side-note, I would like to show you my Qin Dynasty "ge" since you are known as an enthusiastic collector of these... The other bronze piece, of course, is a Han Dynasty crossbow trigger mechanism...

[Kenneth]

Thanks for the info & pics. I hope to get a few more dagger-axes in time as the variation in the form is tremendous....and it truly is an archiac form.

[Thomas Chen]

http://www.marist.ed...r.html?uid=jfp6

Kenneth M. Swope, Assistant Prof. at Marist College, a historian with research interests on late Ming military history, the China-Korea-Japan Imjin Wars, late Ming and Japanese firearms and cannons... And currently writing a article on General Li Chengliang and family (including his son General Li Rusong, commander of the 1st phase of the Korean Campaign). General Li Chengliang was arguably even more famous than Generals Qi Jiguang and Yu Dayou during the late Ming...

Thanks to Yun who had provided me with a copy of Kenneth Swope's essay: "Turning the Tide: The Strategic and Psychological Significance of the Liberation of Pyonyang in 1593".

He also wrote another two essays: "Guns, Guts, and Glory: Notes on Military Technology in the Japanese Invasion of Korea, 1592-1598", and "Beyond Turtleboats: Siege Accounts From Hideyoshi’s Second Invasion of Korea, 1597-98". Let me see if I can obtain a copy...

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http://www.k-state.e.../faculty/Graff/

email: dgraff@ksu.edu

Professor David Graff of Kansas State University, author of "Medieval Chinese Warfare: 300-900", published by Routledge 2002. A specialist on the Age of Fragmentation and Tang warfare...

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Peter Lorge -- a senior lecturer at Vanderbilt University -- specializes in the military and political history of tenth and eleventh century China. He is also interested in contemporary Chinese films. He is author of War, Politics and Society in Early Modern China, 900-1795 (2005), and editor of Warfare in China to 1600 (The International Library of Essays on Military History, 2005). He is currently writing a book on gunpowder in Asian History.

He translated and wrote an article with 2 co-authors, "Defensive Structures and Construction Materials in Song City Walls", Journal of Song Yuan Studies VOLUME 31 (2001)

email: peter.lorge@vanderbilt.edu

He is the editor of "Warfare in China to 1600" (The International Library of Essays on Military History) (Hardcover) for US$195, yikes
http://www.amazon.co...=books&v=glance

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ALASTAIR IAIN JOHNSTON, Associate Professor, Harvard University (author of "Sun Zi Studies in the United States"):
www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~johnston/

He used to teach a course on Chinese Strategic Thought (Ancient and Modern) at Harvard:
http://www.people.fa...on/GOV2882.html

His original Phd dissertation was on the Ming Dynasty Chinese Army and related Chinese classical military theory (Sun Tzu and stuff) and strategic considerations -- An Inquiry into Strategic Culture: The Parabellum Paradigm and Strategic Choice in the Ming Dynasty (PhD, Political Science Department, the University of Michigan, 1993)... Available via www.umi.com

Author of "Cultural Realism: Strategic Culture and Grand Strategy in Chinese History", Princeton University Press, 1995.

This guy is very strong on Chinese military classics, namely the "Wu Jing Qi Shu" or Seven Martial Classics... He is also very knowledgeable on modern Chinese politics and security issues and had even written a severe critique and counter-rebuttal of the COX Report..

http://www.people.fa...hnston/cox.html

Edited by Thomas Chen, 25 October 2005 - 06:03 PM.

[CARDINAL009]

http://www.marist.ed...r.html?uid=jfp6

This guy is very strong on Chinese military classics, namely the "Wu Jing Qi Shu" or Seven Martial Classics... He is also very knowledgeable on modern Chinese politics and security issues and had even written a severe critique and counter-rebuttal of the COX Report..

http://www.people.fa...hnston/cox.html

Mr. Chen,

Q: How does one determine if he/she's ever strong in Chinese military classics?

Are you referring to "the knowledge of using it" or "understanding the historical events within it"!?

Always wonder what makes a prsn a complete ["Chinese strategy or a Sunzi"] expert.
Writing about it!? Leading corporate turnovers? Commanding great armies?

Interested in your pov.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 25 October 2005 - 05:43 PM.

[Thomas Chen]

Mr. Chen,

Q: How does one determine if he/she's ever strong in Chinese military classics?

Are you referring to "the knowledge of using it" or "understanding the historical events within it"!?

Always wonder what makes a prsn a complete ["Chinese strategy or a Sunzi"] expert.
Writing about it!? Leading corporate turnovers? Commanding great armies?

Interested in your pov.

Hi Cardinal

The context of what I was trying to convey was that I think he had the "understanding of the historical events within it", and appreciated deeply the content of the Seven Martial Classics and the historical influence of these books on Chinese strategic thinking through the centuries... He also dispels in his writings the notion that the Chinese were pacific and anti-militaristic... In other words, I think Mr Johnston is sharp, with regards to the historical context and past strategic application...

As for what makes a person a good corporate warrior or soldier applying Sunzi's principles... Well, imho, nothing beats combat experience and real world success... However, there are always capable academics or theoreticians who are able to grasp, explain and enhance/elaborate on Sunzi without the necessary corporate or military success that the elite few might have, but the quality of their writings maybe good enough to warrant study, nonetheless...

As for me, I am just an armchair warrior... A couple of months back, I was so psyched up and crazy over military studies that I had wished in my dreams I had done well in military service to qualify for Officer Cadet School, maybe get promoted to Captain or Major and go to Command and Staff College for higher studies... Then in my fantasy get to command and lead a division or two of a United Nations Multi-National Expeditionary Force fighting some capable foe in the Middle East or the Balkans.. I sure would like to cut my teeth out in the field...

Edited by Thomas Chen, 25 October 2005 - 06:51 PM.

[thirdgumi]

"We have actually finished the section on swords in the Shang through Warring States and done some fighting experiments with the lengths attested by archaeological finds, arriving at a rather different view of combat methods than the traditional sources indicate..."

I can't wait for his conclusions. I wounder what combat methods indicated in traditional sources he was refering to, I wasn't aware that such records existed.

[CARDINAL009]

Hi Cardinal

The context of what I was trying to convey was that I think he had the "understanding of the historical events within it", and appreciated deeply the content of the Seven Martial Classics and the historical influence of these books on Chinese strategic thinking through the centuries... He also dispels in his writings the notion that the Chinese were pacific and anti-militaristic... In other words, I think Mr Johnston is sharp, with regards to the historical context and past strategic application...

As for what makes a person a good corporate warrior or soldier applying Sunzi's principles... Well, imho, nothing beats combat experience and real world success... However, there are always capable academics or theoreticians who are able to grasp, explain and enhance/elaborate on Sunzi without the necessary corporate or military success that the elite few might have, but the quality of their writings maybe good enough to warrant study, nonetheless...

As for me, I am just an armchair warrior... A couple of months back, I was so psyched up and crazy over military studies that I had wished in my dreams I had done well in military service to qualify for Officer Cadet School, maybe get promoted to Captain or Major and go to Command and Staff College for higher studies... Then in my fantasy get to command and lead a division or two of a United Nations Multi-National Expeditionary Force fighting some capable foe in the Middle East or the Balkans.. I sure would like to cut my teeth out in the field...

Mr. Thomas Chen,

Personally seen and chat to many ppl who claimed that they were Sunzi experts. In most cases, they are historicans, teachers and quote masters. The only thing they do is talk history and emphasize leadership. Letting someone doing all the wet work and they take all the glory. Most of them have the ["strategy experience"] of an ant.

Their depthness of their thinking can be described in terms of weiqi as knowing how to focus on their corner of the board while forgetting how to play the rest of the board.

The few good ones that this Cardinal do know, run some sophisticated world class operations (applying principles from Sz & other ancient Chinese strategists) that Sunzi, Jiang Tai Gong, Zhang Liang and other renown ancient strategists would be proud of those achievements.

Would not consider you an armchair warrior. since you are carrying a big sword.

In my case, am a desktop thinker who believes in having ["a pen and a sword in accord"].

Seen some of your writings on other sites esp. the sword forum. Am impressed w/ your knowledge base in those areas.

Wish you well in your endeavor to secure military experience.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 01 November 2005 - 09:04 PM.

[CARDINAL009]

fyi - Doctor Sawyer just published Essential Art of War.

Too simple f/ experienced ppl. Designed f/ novices. One might find some interesting points in the introduction (about impact of bamboo strips) and maybe the closing comments.

Edited by CARDINAL009, 04 November 2005 - 09:02 PM.