3 replies to this topic

[LaoZhou]

The large two-handed swords such as the greatsword and no-dachi were, if I recall correctly, used against polearms/cavalry while the one-handed jian was primarily a civilian weapon.

Where does the two-handed jian fit into usage, then?

Thanks.

[Yun]

Hi LaoZhou, on the two-handed jian, which was apparently popular in the early Han period, see this page of Thomas Chen's website on Chinese swords: http://thomaschen.fr....com/photo.html

It seems to me that such swords were used primarily as slashing and hacking weapons with exceptional range, but were more suited for use on foot than on horseback. Nor were they well-suited for use in close formations. Presumably their usage was usually limited to individual self-defense.

There is a reference in a Han-period text to the Zhanmajian 斩马剑 or "horse-chopping jian", but I have not read any actual accounts of two-handed jian being used against cavalry.

[LaoZhou]

Hi LaoZhou, on the two-handed jian, which was apparently popular in the early Han period, see this page of Thomas Chen's website on Chinese swords: http://thomaschen.fr....com/photo.html

It seems to me that such swords were used primarily as slashing and hacking weapons with exceptional range, but were more suited for use on foot than on horseback. Nor were they well-suited for use in close formations. Presumably their usage was usually limited to individual self-defense.

There is a reference in a Han-period text to the Zhanmajian 斩马剑 or "horse-chopping jian", but I have not read any actual accounts of two-handed jian being used against cavalry.

Thanks!

hm, Han dynasty individual self-defense...

But, the two-handed jian also seems to make an appearance (maybe not a popular one) much later than the Han dynasty, around the time the one-handed jian developed its "stereotypical" shape.

Example of the type of weapon I mean:

http://www.xingong.c.../taiji_ssj1.jpg

Thomas' website that you linked also mentions that the jian returns to military use during the Song dynasty, so once again...what was the function/purpose of using the double-edged, pointy 2handed jian during the Song dynasty, if it was for military use?

[Yun]

On the military use of jian in Song armies, Thomas has the following:
http://chineseswords...om/custom4.html

However, these military jian seem to have been one-handed. The two-handed jian was not extinct, but was probably used only by civilian martial artists in the Song period.

The Chinese weapons historian Ma Mingda has written about the only surviving written evidence of two-handed jian swordsmanship in China - a Korean swordsmanship manual that probably was transmitted from China in the Yuan period: http://ido.thethirdm...0ido.3mt.com.cn
(note: the article is in Chinese)

Ma's article mentions that the Wubeizhi, a Ming-period military manual by Mao Yuanyi, preserved the contents of this Korean manual, calling it the "Choson style". Mao Yuanyi remarked that although the military use of the jian had died out in China by his time, the Tang emperor Li Shimin (Taizong) once had a guard of 1,000 jian swordsmen, showing that the jian was previously used in battle: 古之剑可施于战斗，故唐太宗有剑士千人，今其法不传。... 茅子曰：古之言兵者必言剑，今不用于阵，以失其传也。

The article also points to a record that in the late Ming period, the general Yu Dayou (a contemporary of Qi Jiguang) learned the art of using the "long jian sword of Jing-Chu (i.e., the Hubei region)" from a civilian martial artist named Li Liangqin: 又从李良钦击荆楚长剑.

Note: For the full text of the Korean manual in Wubeizhi, see http://www.chinesego...p;goto=lastpost
Additional note: There is no other textual evidence of Tang Taizong having a guard of jian swordsmen, and I am inclined to regard this as insufficient evidence of any extensive use of two-handed jian in Tang armies.