14 replies to this topic

[yazgar]

didnt guan yu and lu bu have the same horse ( red hare) and if so how.

[Yun]

No, in history they did not. In Lu Bu's historical biography, he has the Red Hare horse, but there is no record of what happened to it after he was killed, or whether it was even still alive by then. The novel Romance of the Three Kingdoms made up the story that Cao Cao gave Red Hare to Guan Yu, which has no basis in historical sources.

[Aaron]

An interesting thing I read recently by someone's translation of Complete Writings from the Three Kingdoms, mentions Cao Cao giving Yang Xiu's (the man Cao Cao executed for mentioning the "Chicken Tendon" incident at Han Zhong) father Yang Biao a swift crimson haired steed. Not sure what the line is in Chinese, so I'll give you the whole thing. (Maybe someone can give their own translation?)

操白：與足下同海內大義，足下不遺，以賢子見輔。比中國雖靖，方外未夷，今軍征事大，百姓騷擾，吾制鍾鼓之音，主簿宜守。而足下賢于侍豪父之勢，每不與吾同懷。即欲直繩，顧頗恨恨，謂其能改，遂轉寬舒。復即宥貸，將延足下尊門大累。便令刑之。念卿父息之情，同此悼楚，亦未必非幸也。今贈足下錦裘二領，八節銀角桃杖一枚，青檀床褥三具，官絹五百匹，錢六十萬，畫輪四望，通幰七香車一乘，青牛二頭，八百里驊騮馬一匹，赤戎金裝鞍轡十副，鈴眊一具，驅使二人。並遺足下貴室錯綵羅縠裘一領，織成靴一量，有心青衣二人，長奉左右。所奉雖薄，以表吾意，足下便當慨然承納，不致往返。

(古文苑，略見書鈔一百三十三、一百三十四、初學記二十五、御覽三百四十一、四百七十八、六百九十三、六百九十四、六百九十八、七百八，又七百十、又七百七十三、八百十五)

I would think that since Lu Bu did have possession of Red Hare, it most certainly would have gone to Cao Cao, and he most likely would have kept it. But what of this horse mentioned?

[Yun]

That's the 八百里驊騮馬一匹, "one red-haired horse that can cover 800 li in a day".

I wouldn't read too much into it without more evidence. There were probably more than a few fast red-haired horses in north China.

[Aaron]

That's the 八百里驊騮馬一匹, "one red-haired horse that can cover 800 li in a day".

I wouldn't read too much into it without more evidence. There were probably more than a few fast red-haired horses in north China.

Yeah, that seems to be the most logical explanation.

Just a quick question, is there anything (secondary or otherwise) stating the actual breed of horse? Perhaps an Arabian or perhaps even a Turkoman, especially considering the location they're most found in. The Turkoman seems most likely, as they were well known for their endurance and were of a moderately sized height 15-16 hh. They also came in many different colours (meaning that there would be red ones), and even more interesting is their hair was a different structure, giving it a kind of sheen.

Though I'm guessing that's a question that can't be fully answered without some speculation, and understanding horses and the characteristics which make them different.

[yazgar]

well didnt cao cao and liu bei work to defeat lu bu if so maybe cao cao gave red hare to guan yu for thanks for their help

[Yun]

Maybe, but in history there are too many maybes. There were lots of other people Cao Cao could have given a horse to after defeating Lu Bu. If he wanted to reward someone who had made big contributions to Lu Bu's defeat, the first person to be rewarded should be Chen Deng.

[Pang Tong]

Maybe, but in history there are too many maybes. There were lots of other people Cao Cao could have given a horse to after defeating Lu Bu. If he wanted to reward someone who had made big contributions to Lu Bu's defeat, the first person to be rewarded should be Chen Deng.

My humble opinion says that if Cao Cao was wise, he would have given his horse to Liu Bei, because by this time, he knew Liu Bei's lineage and I believe Lu Bu's defeat was after the setting where Cao Cao and Liu Bei has tea together, and Cao famously made reference to their only being two heroes in China, Himself and Lie Bei.

If that is to be so, and Cao Cao did indeed give the famous Red Hard to Cao Cao, I would imagine Liu Bei would have then turned around and given it to Lord Guan Yu. This of course, is just my opinion, but I do not imagine Liu Bei keeping the horse for himself, if he knew it'd be better used for a warrior, like that of a Guan Yu.

[Ma Su]

Historically the court doesn't seem to have confirmed Liu Bei's heritage though the author, Chen Shou, of the sgz believed to be fact. Whether Cao Cao did or did not believe the Han lineage, I doubt he would have given Liu Bei too much of value, enough to seem generous of an ally but Cao Cao didn't trust Liu Bei.

[Pang Tong]

Historically the court doesn't seem to have confirmed Liu Bei's heritage though the author, Chen Shou, of the sgz believed to be fact. Whether Cao Cao did or did not believe the Han lineage, I doubt he would have given Liu Bei too much of value, enough to seem generous of an ally but Cao Cao didn't trust Liu Bei.

I would agree, in fact I would almost go as far as to say that Cao Cao didn't seem to trust many people. But I just imagine Cao Cao giving the Red Hare to Liu Bei, with the intention of maybe building a kind of relationship with him that he could betray and kill Liu Bei. Again, this is just all losely based on the novel and in my head, both which have nothing to back it up.

[Ma Su]

Cao Cao could be paranoid but to say he didn't trust anyone would be harsh, he trusted Xun You, Gou Jia, Xiahou Dun, Xu Chu and others to a varying state. Few lords seem to have trusted Liu Bei and Cao Cao seems to have felt Liu Bei was ambitious, popular and dangerous to him, he had pondered executing him already but Cao Cao knew the damage that would do. I imagine the plan was to keep Bei under control and try to either neuter the threat or win him over but if that was the goal, stealing the woman Guan Yu wanted was probably not the best way to go about it. Still possible though that a warhorse was a gift Cao Cao could afford to gamble on giving away

Or Zhang Fei stealing Xiahou Yuan's daughter/kinsman, I doubt that helped relations much

Edited by Ma Su, 26 January 2009 - 03:23 PM.

[Yun]

stealing the woman Guan Yu wanted was probably not the best way to go about it.

Zhang Fei stealing Xiahou Yuan's daughter/kinsman, I doubt that helped relations much

Ma Su, perhaps you should elaborate on these incidents because they don't appear in the novel and are hence not well known to people who haven't read the Sanguo Zhi.

You make a good point: After Lu Bu's downfall, Guan Yu asked Cao Cao for a beautiful woman and not a horse. I don't think it would have satisfied Guan to be given Red Hare instead of a new concubine.

[Ma Su]

Guan Yu's lady: There was a general of Lu Bu called Qin Yilu, during Cao Cao's attack, Yilu was away as envoy to Yuan Shu. He left behind a wife called Lady Du and according to one annotation, Guan Yu wanted her

Shu Ji (Records of Shu): When Lord Cao and Liu Bei surrounded Lu Bu at Xiapei, Guan Yu said to the Lord, “Lu Bu has sent Qin Yilu to go for help; I beg to have his wife in marriage.” The lord granted him. And right before defeating Lu, he asked the lord several more times. The lord then, suspecting that the woman was of exceptional beauty, had her fetched over first so he could have a look, and he kept her there. Guan Yu was troubled in his heart over that.—This is the same as what is said in “The Annuals of the Wei Family”.

Cao Cao kept her and she had two sons, Lin and Gu with him. Yilu had just married a Lady Liu as a gift from Yuan Shu and joined Cao Cao, he was with Liu Bei in Xu when Liu Bei revolted, Zhang Fei taunted him about Cao Cao and Du. Despite, or perhaps because of the taunts, Yilu initially helped Liu Bei but decided to return to Cao Cao, Zhang Fei killed him. Yilu's son Lang was adopted and well loved by Cao Cao, he would become close to Cao Rui and was an accepted part of the court throughout his life. As Yun says, not too sure a warhorse is quite the same thing for Guan Yu.

Zhang Fei tale: Around 200-201, a relative of Xiahou Yuan (sources seem to disagree on if Yuan's child or kinswoman), aged 13-14, she was out gathering wood when Zhang Fei found her and stole her away, whether for a servant or something else it doesn't say. When Zhang Fei discovered she was of the Xiahou clan, he promptly married her, they had two daughters who married Liu Shan, Fei's wife would bury Xiahou Yuan (presumably also buried the child Xiahou Rong) after the fall of Hanzhong. In all honesty, the marriage may have done no damage but if she was Yuan's daughter, I can't imagine it was a very happy feeling for Yuan and for his kinsman for this to suddenly happen, bit of tension between the camps. Just speculation mind

Edited by Ma Su, 26 January 2009 - 05:43 PM.

[yazgar]

but even with a this iif cao cao stole guan yus girl why wouldnt he take the horse and aim for revenge?

[Ma Su]

Why didn't Guan Yu seek revenge? Cao Cao was well protected by his bodyguards, there may well have not bee a chance during his service to Cao Cao and after Guan Yu left Cao Cao, there was never a chance for him to kill Cao Cao. Hope I understood the question

Edited by Ma Su, 27 January 2009 - 01:16 PM.