21 replies to this topic

[Minh]

Wiki and other sites often say this about the genetics of the Vietnamese people "dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations" based on a genetic research by a French hospital in the 1990s. I seek explanation for the term "Thai-Indonesian". Could anyone pls. give your view on the genetic constitution of the Vietnamese population. Is there much "Chinese" origin in Vietnamese ? Had ever been large waves of Han Chinese influx into the Viet society ? How large ? When ? Is Vietnamese close to the Huanan (Southern Han Chinese) ? Does Huanan differ from Huabei (Northern Han Chinese) genetically ?

[surfingusa]

Genetic relationship of populations in China on the PNAS website

http://www.pubmedcen...cgi?artid=21714


Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not.

The statement sort of confirms Han Chinese from South China " mostly came originally from the north ", which substantiate Li Hui theory of one of his 3 streams where in one stream the peoples passed through Tibetan Plateau to arrive in North China were ancestors of the Han-Chinese and Tibetans, carrying the genetic marker M117.PNAS site states that "Han-Chinese living in the south of China mostly came originally from the north, but they did so at very different times".

Virtually all Han Chinese share the same paternal and maternal lineages except for few southern groups that had Austronesian maternal ancestors.The many migrations ( referenced Tang & Song history chronicles ) into southern China have diluted the bloodlines.

The fact is that the Han Chinese majority and ethnic Vietnamese didn't share a common root.Any culture similarity,language similarity and genetic similarity in the south are due to Chinese expansion to the south,and cultural diffusion, and mixing with the local people but not by common root. its simple as that.It is a fact that Vietnamese culture shares similarities with Chinese culture is due to Chinese influence like how Chinese influenced Korean and Japanese,not by common root.Another fact that the northern Han-Chinese migrated southward in large numbers and some have mixed with the locals and thats the reason they are genetically related ( same scenario with Chinese & Japanese or Chinese & Koreans because their ancestors originally from Asia continent which is today's China excluding Russian Far East Territory & outer Mongolia ).


Below are credible and interesting sources that any interested reader can find out more about the former ancient kingdom of Champa in southern part of Vietnam and her people.

Concerning my personal "impression" of the former Champa kingdom, here is just but one conclusion from Authors Peter and Sanda Simms who wrote, "Champa had been proved to be an extremely powerful and civilized nation."

There is a Vietnamese scholar named Dr. Thanh Liem Vo of Australia who wrote about the Cham people as follows:

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!

Mr Pham Van Dong ( a Cham descendant ) was Prime Minister of North Vietnam for 45 years.Former S Vietnam president Mr Nguyen Van Thieu ( also a Cham descendant).They both did nothing for Chams...No one in South and Central Vietnam can say for sure they have no Cham or Cambodian blood.

Edited by surfingusa, 25 January 2009 - 05:08 AM.

[mongobanjum]

Genetic map using 650K genetic markers (SNP) in East Asia.

Vietnamese are close to Dai ethnic group.

The Chinese Han sample is a mix of northern Chinese (CHB) and southern Chinese.
The Chinese Han dots closer to the Japanese are the northern Chinese (CHB) and the dots closer to the Vietnamese are the southern Chinese. So, as you can see, the northerners are very different from the southerners.

Edited by mongobanjum, 24 January 2009 - 05:22 AM.

[surfingusa]

The Chinese Han dots closer to the Japanese are the northern Chinese (CHB)

Have you ever studied China's geography ?!

Locate Jiangsu province on the map,it's southern China.A region has genetic affinity to Japanese & Koreans.

[mongobanjum]

Have you ever studied China's geography ?!

Locate Jiangsu province on the map,it's southern China.A region has genetic affinity to Japanese & Koreans.

Can you please rephrase your post, I don't understand a word from you. Is English your second language?

I was referring to this genetic distance map. The Han that are close to the Japanese are the northern Chinese, whereas the ones closer to the Vietnamese are southern Chinese.

The study only used northern Chinese (CHB) and southern Chinese (Chinese American) samples. They did not use any Chinese from other provinces.

Edited by mongobanjum, 24 January 2009 - 08:12 AM.

[surfingusa]

I was referring to this genetic distance map.The Han that are close to the Japanese are the northern Chinese, whereas the ones closer to the Vietnamese are southern Chinese.

It's relative !

Can you grasp this simple English sentence,is pig-Latin your second language ?

The ones are closer because of mutual ancestry ( same tribes ) not overall general population by all means.

Edited by surfingusa, 24 January 2009 - 01:39 PM.

[Yun]

Verbal warning to surfingusa and mongobanjum: Stop insulting each other's language ability. It is childish and if it continues, it will result in this thread being shut down and in both of you receiving official warnings.

[Minh]

Pls. debate properly guys U guys seem to be not in accordance with each other. Oops I've still got a lot of unanswered question. Btw, Happy New Year to All ! A Bullish New Year

[Minh]

"…the vast majority of the population in Central Vietnam are from Cham descendants but assimilated into Viet culture wholely." Listen to their accent!!

Mr Pham Van Dong ( a Cham descendant ) was Prime Minister of North Vietnam for 45 years.Former S Vietnam president Mr Nguyen Van Thieu ( also a Cham descendant).They both did nothing for Chams...No one in South and Central Vietnam can say for sure they have no Cham or Cambodian blood.

Really ? I believe that today people officially identified as Cham in VN account for only a very small percentage. I know that Dong was born in Central VN but have no knowledge that he is a Cham; the same bout Thieu too.

[Minh]

Verbal warning to surfingusa and mongobanjum: Stop insulting each other's language ability. It is childish and if it continues, it will result in this thread being shut down and in both of you receiving official warnings.

Oops I do no harm to others Pls. do not shut my thread down I'm still seeking further opinions.

[surfingusa]

Oops I've still got a lot of unanswered question.

....... related CHF threads .......


" Birth of Vietnam " by Keith Taylor

http://www.chinahist...p...c=11674&hl=


Migrations of Han-Chinese to Southern China

http://www.chinahist...p...c=17665&hl=

[MC420]

Hi Minh:

I'm also part of Vietnamese ancestry who came from the south; my ancestors root could be traced back as far as to the 14 Century (in Thanh Hoa). I've participated in the Genographic Project which sponsored by the National Geographic, who utilizes my genetic data to track the migration of my ancestors. Per the Genographic Project, my ancestors (of course initially traveled from the Eastern part of Africa through the Euroasia's steps, crossed south from the modern India, Pakistan's region before the moved north from SE Asia (as I do have distant "cousins" in China & Japan... as well). Basically, my personal genetic data does support the migration pattern of the contemporary Asian folks of moving from the south to the north. I hope this information will be helpful to you regarding your quest.


Chúc mừng năm mới & Happy New Lunar Year to us all!

[Minh]

Hi Minh:

I'm also part of Vietnamese ancestry who came from the south; my ancestors root could be traced back as far as to the 14 Century (in Thanh Hoa). I've participated in the Genographic Project which sponsored by the National Geographic, who utilizes my genetic data to track the migration of my ancestors. Per the Genographic Project, my ancestors (of course initially traveled from the Eastern part of Africa through the Euroasia's steps, crossed south from the modern India, Pakistan's region before the moved north from SE Asia (as I do have distant "cousins" in China & Japan... as well). Basically, my personal genetic data does support the migration pattern of the contemporary Asian folks of moving from the south to the north. I hope this information will be helpful to you regarding your quest.


Chúc mừng năm mới & Happy New Lunar Year to us all!

On the from-south-to-north hypothesis, I heard that the people first settle in Southeast Asia belong to the Negroid race (many Polynesians these days still retain fairly black skin). So when did our Negroid ancestor mutate or "getting white" to become Mongoloid ? Some even went far to postulate that therefore Chinese and other East Asian civilization rooted in SE Asia cultures. For example, the Han studied the cultivation of rice from the ancient Yue and ancient SEA people possessed the most advanced technology in casting bronze as evidenced in the bronze drum artifact


恭喜发财 Cung hỉ phát tài to U all

[MC420]

... ancient SEA people possessed the most advanced technology in casting bronze as evidenced in the bronze drum artifact


恭喜发财 Cung hỉ phát tài to U all

Should you refer to the Dongsonian culture, which flourished merely within 500-700 years (about 700 BC - 43 AD); if we compare it to other highly developed culture in the region then one would not consider it was not as "advanced" as others might wish (pls note that the bronze age had already being developed in the central plain of modern China was at least 1,000 years older than the Dongsonian culture and fairly recently at the Non Nok Tha site in Thailand, the earlier settlers had already used bronze objects could be listed among the earliest people on earth, perhaps could go back as far as 4,000 BC); if people could travel from this site to the Dongson village of Thanh Hoa province, they could reach their within "one moon" by foot. One thing I've noticed that the Dongsonian culture somehow didn't use precious metals such as gold or silver in their artifacts (?); I hope within a near future, there would be more objective studies of the ancient Dongsonian culture, whereas the contemporary Vietnamese would cite it as the "apex" of their ancient culture though.

[surfingusa]

Some even went far to postulate that therefore Chinese and other East Asian civilization rooted in SE Asia cultures.

This claim is overstetched !

There are several advanced ' northern " Neotlithic cultures like Yangshao 仰韶文化 & Hongshan 紅山文化 contributed significantly to Chinese civilization.

http://en.wikipedia....ltures_of_China