194 replies to this topic

[astralis]

sorry guys,

if you actually read his book and examine it, you will also see how the many critiques of menzies' book reveals his "evidence" to be a whole bunch of mumbo-jumbo.

[Sephodwyrm]

Why don't you critique the book yourself by doing your own research? There's too much politics involved in this, and there's always a refusal to accept Chinese technological superiority throughout history. When most Europeans in their historical books call London the biggest city in the world, or Rome as the biggest city in the world, or the Roman Empire as the greatest Empire in classical history, I see no reason why I should believe in European scholars.

The thing is that we should, on the pretext of Menzies' work, start other projects and investigate more about the voyages of Ma San Bao. It is useless just sitting around and criticizing. Recent news from the Chinese archaeological department is that they are probably going to spend some serious money looking more deeply into the matter. I think this is the better way to go.

[DaMo]

Well, let's at least not run around quoting it as fact. We can say that the theories of the Ming reaching America are being investigated, but there is too little evidence at this point to claim outright that they did.

[astralis]

certainly more historical research into zheng he's voyages would be nice. but menzies' "research" centers primarily around one old european map that with VERY creative "re-sizing" has "similarities" to a few chinese maps. also, he includes VERY sketchy DNA evidence, evident to people who have studied biology, and some of the archaeological evidence he has presented have been disproved.
i have problems with this sort of sensationalist literature. many, many critiques have been done of menzies work ranging from taida in taiwan to the full gamut of US and british universities, including UC berkeley, UCSD, stanford, harvard, princeton, oxford...etc etc. certainly not just "european bias." the taiwanese magazine "sinorama" (guang hua) just did an article about this.

[DaMo]

MODS: Perhaps this should be pinned until July 22nd. B)

[Yun]

Done :lol:

[zelbest]

just saw it last night and menzie's theory got owned. He failed to provide any concrete evidence to support his theory.

[Ghost_of_Han]

No I refuse to believe you, your just trying to bring down Menzie. His had some details that were assumed, but I see no reason not to believe his major part of the theory that China was first.

So what about the DNA. Can you tell me its not sketchy, I mean from the map all the indian nations on the coast had Chinese linked DNA. The counter argument is that the theory of the Asian crossing over the ice bridge, but that wouldn't explain why only coastal DNA is like Chinese.

I don't believe the light house was Chinese, but that rock road was left by the Chinese. Its too perfect to be natural, and it makes perfect sense the reason for it. They need a kinda of ramp for the ships.

I think the Italian explorer didn't metion the Chinese that much is because, Europeans are tradionally nationalists, and have been know to lie about things. Who would want to come back home and admit that there is someone WAY WAY beyond you.

Think about it 28,000 some men, no matter how rich you are, you don't send that many men to just trade, they were going on a long journey.

Only problem is the records have been burned, and we will probaley never be for sure in what happened. But no one can denine that something in History is worng.

[Cao Cao]

I saw the PBS documentary too and while Menzies' theories on the Da Conti map, the Bimini Roads, and the Newport lighthouse were heavily debated upon, what was the most disappointing for me was that there was no mention or debate on the supposed wreckages of Ming ships that Menzies mentioned on his website, www.1421.tv, specifically http://www.1421.tv/p...x.asp?PageID=79

of which I would think are the most important supporting contentions for Menzies' main thesis.

[wuTao]

I personally believe that Menzies is a fraud, and the show proves it. Menzies' inability to respond to the criticize presented to him shows how groundless his theory is. All he could say was "i accept that" when presented with experts saying that da Conti never mentions Chinese or travels to China, or how the map does not really say "volcano erupted here", or when Chinese experts said that Zhou Wen returned home early. He's basically agreeing that he never really did any indepth research, and his claims are fradulent!

[zelbest]

i wouldnt call him a fraud, he just made too many assumptions and took many rumors or theories as truth without investigating them.

to Ghost of Han: im not trying to bring him down, i want to believe that china reached America first as much as he did. Its just i cannot believe in theories that have way too many holes in them.

[Yun]

Any comments on the isolated "leads" presented on this page in Menzies' site?

http://www.1421.tv/gallery.asp#

Or on Menzies' suggestion that the Chinese built an earlier version of the Panama Canal? http://www.1421.tv/p...?EvidenceID=194
(contrary to the title, he doesn't say anything about the Egyptians)

[Ghost_of_Han]

I personally believe that Menzies is a fraud, and the show proves it. Menzies' inability to respond to the criticize presented to him shows how groundless his theory is. All he could say was "i accept that" when presented with experts saying that da Conti never mentions Chinese or travels to China, or how the map does not really say "volcano erupted here", or when Chinese experts said that Zhou Wen returned home early. He's basically agreeing that he never really did any indepth research, and his claims are fradulent!

All he did was assume things, and they posed questions at him, that he had no way to give a good reponse. They just skewd him. All the facts are kinda blurry, but the fact remains, there was a map made long before Colmbus, the NAtive american DNA on the Coast is that of Chinese and Europeans were known for lying, so I bet they know there weren't the first and just lied about it.

[Kulong]

I wanted to post this under the older thread about the PBS documentary but couldn't find it and the Search feature is disabled.

For those of you who missed it, here is a BitTorrent file for it.

http://66.90.75.92/s...America.torrent

Yeah, in your face DaMo. :P

[Mod: Kulong, I've merged this into the original thread for you]