27 replies to this topic

[Tang Scholar]

Tang Scholar, who would you like to nominate to choose next week's poem?

Seeing that Seclusive recently wrote (and translated) on Translation 26, I would suggest her. It would be the first time she chooses a poem for translation in this workshop. She's a lover of classical poetry, so maybe people like Silvester would be happy with her choice. And others - like me, of course. I have sent her a message.

[rovi297]

Well. I remember a very beautiful sentence of Mark Twain - by the way, on a chinese matter which I do not remember well. Mocking the sentence of "Tails I win, heads you loose" he changed that to "Taels I win, heads you loose". The first sentence expanded means "If the coin shows tails up, I win; if it shows heads, you loose (and therefore I win too). The second sentence, echoing the first one, has a most terrible meaning, and it is that "I win silver and you loose your heads". In this second sentence, the usual order of the phrase in modern English is turned upside down: instead of subject-verb-object, it becomes object-subject-verb.
[I just found out, Mark Twain was criticising western missionary policies in China. See
http://people.virgin...otheperson.html
for the whole article - very interesting.]

I think the English language has a definite word order but in ancient times it was not so rigid as it is today.
I also believe everyone is the owner of his/her text. Others may make suggestions, and even corrections, but they have to be done in a respectful way, and the author has the ultimate word in appraising the suggestions and corrections about what he has written.
But especially, I think that in this forum we are not in the position to feel absolutely right or wrong about matters of English grammar , nor to argue to death about them, so I would ask you to end this discussion.

Thanks for your reply. Well, I am not at all attempting to correct anything. I am simply asking a question in a very respectful way. How on earth could you detect any rudeness in my remarks?

[Yun]

there is a contradiction between 'chicken and millet have my old friend prepared' and 'Jacob have I loved"

Well, if 'chicken and millet' is the subject, does it mean it matches the pattern of 'have sth done' - chicken and millet have sb prepared = have sth done? that is absolutely hilarious.

Well, I see your point, and will correct my translation to get rid of the grammatical problem.

so why not simply say "they keep coming to catch my hair'?

Because I am using "catch" as a synonym for "get stuck", as with the example I raised of "His overalls caught in the engine." It is similar to "get caught in sth", and might be a short form of it. You may not have seen this usage before, but I have, and the dictionary does include it.

In any case, would you like to share a translation of this poem with us? I don't know about you, but I prefer talking about poetry to talking about grammar

[rovi297]

Well, I see your point, and will correct my translation to get rid of the grammatical problem.



Because I am using "catch" as a synonym for "get stuck", as with the example I raised of "His overalls caught in the engine." It is similar to "get caught in sth", and might be a short form of it. You may not have seen this usage before, but I have, and the dictionary does include it.

In any case, would you like to share a translation of this poem with us? I don't know about you, but I prefer talking about poetry to talking about grammar

yeah, get caught in sth is right, not catch. Anyway, I have been told to end this discussion, so I won't talk any more regarding this issue.

Yes, I totally agree with you. We should talk more about poetry rather than anything else.

Cheers

[Yun]

BTW, welcome to CHF! I hope you will enjoy yourself and make many friends here.

[rovi297]

BTW, welcome to CHF! I hope you will enjoy yourself and make many friends here.

Thank you very much. I think I will!

[Liu]

Tang Scholar and Liu:
dāi as a reading for 待 is a relatively modern colloquialism that means "stay". The original reading for 待 is dài, in which case it means "wait for". On this, see http://www.zdic.net/...dicBEZdic85.htm

Thank you Yun. I have edited my translations.

[Tang Scholar]

Thanks for your reply. Well, I am not at all attempting to correct anything. I am simply asking a question in a very respectful way. How on earth could you detect any rudeness in my remarks?

Well, maybe I was over sensitive. The fact that you are new to the workshop, and that we have discussed how to deal with criticism before, made me a bit more nervous than usual.
Anyway, welcome to the workshop. Please expose yourself with some future translations. Where are you from?

[rovi297]

Well, maybe I was over sensitive. The fact that you are new to the workshop, and that we have discussed how to deal with criticism before, made me a bit more nervous than usual.
Anyway, welcome to the workshop. Please expose yourself with some future translations. Where are you from?

Well, I do believe you are. What is the definition of whorkshop please? This website is not an exclusive domain but an international community, which is under public scrutiny. Do I deserve your arbitrary? Each and everyone of us here should have the freedom of speech. Sure, I am not an expert at all, but I reckon any constructive criticism or comment will do no harm to anybody's reputation, in other words, to discredit anyone, or undermine anybody's authority, or ruin anyone's buisness.

As for where I am from, is it important?

[Yun]

but I reckon any constructive criticism or comment will do no harm to anybody's reputation, in other words, to discredit anyone, or undermine anybody's authority, or ruin anyone's buisness.

Yes, but I think both Tang Scholar and I would agree that the tone of your criticisms sounded aggressive and even a little sarcastic. So far, whether on this translation workshop or the other one that I run, we have taken care to disagree with each other in the most tactful and sensitive way possible, in order to avoid conflicts. I hope you will consider this.

Normally, we would be more inclined to accept criticism from people whom we know well and trust as friends. Such trust and friendship takes time to build, and because you have just arrived on this forum, naturally it is harder for us to be sure that your intentions are good. That said, I am ready to be your friend if you are ready to be mine, and hopefully we will get to know one another better with time.

As for where you are from and what your areas of interest are, I must admit to being curious as well. But if you are not willing to tell us about it yet, that is OK. I am sure you will tell us more when you feel the time is right.

[Tang Scholar]

Yes, but I think both Tang Scholar and I would agree that the tone of your criticisms sounded aggressive and even a little sarcastic. So far, whether on this translation workshop or the other one that I run, we have taken care to disagree with each other in the most tactful and sensitive way possible, in order to avoid conflicts. I hope you will consider this.

Normally, we would be more inclined to accept criticism from people whom we know well and trust as friends. Such trust and friendship takes time to build, and because you have just arrived on this forum, naturally it is harder for us to be sure that your intentions are good. That said, I am ready to be your friend if you are ready to be mine, and hopefully we will get to know one another better with time.

As for where you are from and what your areas of interest are, I must admit to being curious as well. But if you are not willing to tell us about it yet, that is OK. I am sure you will tell us more when you feel the time is right.

Thank you, Yun, for saying this. Yes, it is a matter of tone. It sounds as if the workshop were not a cozy studio for reflection and interchange anymore, but suddendly had metamorphosed into a fighting scenario, a gladiator battlefield. And such change of environment would not be what we want to build.

Rovi297, you can see the importance I give to places of origin from the words written under my avatar.
I asked about your place of origin not only out of curiosity but also as a token of friendship. I think there is a link between persons and the place they inhabit, so I can understand them more easily if I know what place is that.

Also, people who reveal their inner reality are more easily trusted than those who do not do so. That is the importance of openness. By being open, you show that you are not a masked Ninja ready to strike and go. To know about you, your history and your likings helps to the friendshipful environment we want to build up here.

I am not a lover of confrontation or conflict for its sake. I normally prefer kindness to roughness. To me, to be truthful does not mean to be rude. Poetry, the matter of the workshop, can have sometimes violence as its theme, but it is not violent in itself. Freedom of speech – as any other freedom – has limits in poetry. Quality is required. How strange this expression sounds in a poetic context – freedom of speech. Poets guard themselves from uttering out everything that comes into their minds. What they are after is that hard to get quality called poetry.

A workshop such as this, to me, is a place where certain people, those interested in practising and learning an art, gather in order to provide and benefit from an environment favourable to such art. Ours is translating poetry. One of our members has recently referred to this workshop as a Poetry Translation Garden. Most adequate, I think. It is certainly not a Poetry Translation Arena.

I invite you to join us in this spirit. There is not need to be defensive among us. If you expose your self, nobody will see that as a sign of weakness. No need for you to attack before being attacked.

All this can be recognized as a call to exert a very traditional Chinese virtue – the human quality, human harmony. The character I am thinking of - I hope I am not wrong - is composed of a compressed human figure to the left, and a number two to the right. Let us all together strive to develop our workshop in such a way.

[Seclusive]

Thank you for what you said so sincerely posted on #26, my dear friend Tang Scholar.

As a lover of poetry, I hate "a gladiator battlefield (阿修羅場/阿修罗场)" that has caused so many real poets from all the places to select dying than life in the world .

I am very sad for this, so I really hope this Poetry Translation Garden never become another battlefiled forever.

This garden should be composed of so many flowers, same and not the same, from every corner on the earth.

Every petal of flowers can live kindly and with pleasure here, this is my real pray.

Note: ā xiū luó (阿修羅/阿修罗) is some being (有情) that has very charming appearance but very ugly heart. I've never been able to make friends with those beings.

Edited by Seclusive, 03 March 2009 - 01:48 AM.

[Seclusive]

Hi all,

I've just finished my work. Here it is :

過故人莊

故人具雞黍
邀我至田家
綠樹村邊合
青山郭外斜
開軒面場圃
把酒話桑麻
待到重陽日
還來就菊花

----------

De passage au village, chez un vieil ami

Mon vieil ami possède un coq et du millet
Il m’a invité dans sa maison à la campagne
Des arbres verts forment la frontière du village
La montagne bleue s’incline au-delà des remparts,
De là-haut, on peut apercevoir son jardin
Où nous levons notre verre tout en parlant du lin et du mûrier
J'attendrai jusqu’au jour de la Chongyang
Et jusqu’à ce que les fleurs de chrysanthèmes s’épanouissent.

----------

Visiting an old friend at his village

My old friend owns a rooster and some millet
He invited me in his house at the countryside
Green trees drawn the border of the village
Blue mountain slope beyond the ramparts,
Up from there, you can distinguish his garden
Where we drink wine while talking about linen and mulberry
I shall wait until the Chongyang day
And until flowers of chrysanthemums bloom.

----------

過故人莊
guò gùrén zhuāng
passer, traverser/dépasser/après – vieil ami – solemn / dignified / stately / august / sober / gravity / a large farmhouse / a manor house / a village / a hamlet / a market / a shop / a store / a bank / a Chinese family name
De passage au village, chez un vieil ami

故人具雞黍
gùrén jù jī shǔ
vieil ami – possèder, avoir – coq – millet
Mon vieil ami possède un coq et du millet

邀我至田家
yāo wǒ zhì tián jiā
inviter/demander- moi, je- jusqu’à/ à / très – champ – famille/foyer/maison/école
Il m’a invité dans sa maison de campagne

綠樹村邊合
lǜshù cūn biān gě
vert – arbre/ planter – village/rustre – côté/frontière/en même temps – fermer/unir/convenir
Des arbres verts forment la frontière du village

青山郭外斜
qīng shān guō wài xié
bleu ou vert / jeune /herbe verte – montagne/mont – rempart extérieur – extérieur/étranger – oblique/de travers (incliné)
Là-bas, la montagne bleue s’incline au-delà des remparts,

開軒面場圃
kāi xuān miàn chǎng pǔ
ouvrir/frayer/commencer/fonder – haut/élevé – visage/surface/côté/donner sur/farine/nouilles – place/terrain – jardin
De là-haut, on peut apercevoir son jardin

把酒話桑麻
bǎjiǔ huà sāng má
tenir à la main un verre de vin / lever son verre – parole/dire/parler – mûrier – chanvre/lin
Où nous levons notre verre tout en parlant du lin et du mûrier

待到重陽日
dāi dào Chóngyáng rì
rester/demeurer attendre – arriver, parvenir, atteindre/ aller à /à, jusqu’à – Chóngyáng – soleil/jour/temps
J'attendrai jusqu’au jour de la Chongyang

還來就菊花
hái lái jiù júhuā
encore/aussi – venir/arriver/prochain/environ – chrysanthème – chrysanthème fleur
Et jusqu’à ce que les fleurs de chrysanthème s’épanouissent.

Dear friend, you draw a very beautiful scene for all of us in "Green trees drawn the border of the village/ Blue mountain slope beyond the ramparts."

Mountains can contain not only flowers but also trees. That's more splendid!

Edited by Seclusive, 03 March 2009 - 05:08 AM.