27 replies to this topic

[Tang Scholar]

Well, here is one from Meng Haoran (689-740), one of the oldest among the great Tang poets. I don't know much about him; I hope you will illustrate me.

過故人莊

故人具雞黍
邀我至田家
綠樹村邊合
青山郭外斜
開軒面場圃
把酒話桑麻
待到重陽日
還來就菊花

guò gùrén zhuāng

gùrén jù jī shǔ
yāo wǒ zhì tián jiā
lǜshù cūn biān gě
qīng shān guō wài xié
kāi xuān miàn chǎng pǔ
bǎjiǔ huà sāng má
dāi dào Chóngyáng rì
hái lái jiù júhuā

[Liu]

Hi all,

I've just finished my work. Here it is :

過故人莊

故人具雞黍
邀我至田家
綠樹村邊合
青山郭外斜
開軒面場圃
把酒話桑麻
待到重陽日
還來就菊花

----------

De passage au village, chez un vieil ami

Mon vieil ami possède un coq et du millet
Il m’a invité dans sa maison à la campagne
Des arbres verts forment la frontière du village
La montagne bleue s’incline au-delà des remparts,
De là-haut, on peut apercevoir son jardin
Où nous levons notre verre tout en parlant du lin et du mûrier
J'attendrai jusqu’au jour de la Chongyang
Et jusqu’à ce que les fleurs de chrysanthèmes s’épanouissent.

----------

Visiting an old friend at his village

My old friend owns a rooster and some millet
He invited me in his house at the countryside
Green trees drawn the border of the village
Blue mountain slope beyond the ramparts,
Up from there, you can distinguish his garden
Where we drink wine while talking about linen and mulberry
I shall wait until the Chongyang day
And until flowers of chrysanthemums bloom.

----------

過故人莊
guò gùrén zhuāng
passer, traverser/dépasser/après – vieil ami – solemn / dignified / stately / august / sober / gravity / a large farmhouse / a manor house / a village / a hamlet / a market / a shop / a store / a bank / a Chinese family name
De passage au village, chez un vieil ami

故人具雞黍
gùrén jù jī shǔ
vieil ami – possèder, avoir – coq – millet
Mon vieil ami possède un coq et du millet

邀我至田家
yāo wǒ zhì tián jiā
inviter/demander- moi, je- jusqu’à/ à / très – champ – famille/foyer/maison/école
Il m’a invité dans sa maison de campagne

綠樹村邊合
lǜshù cūn biān gě
vert – arbre/ planter – village/rustre – côté/frontière/en même temps – fermer/unir/convenir
Des arbres verts forment la frontière du village

青山郭外斜
qīng shān guō wài xié
bleu ou vert / jeune /herbe verte – montagne/mont – rempart extérieur – extérieur/étranger – oblique/de travers (incliné)
Là-bas, la montagne bleue s’incline au-delà des remparts,

開軒面場圃
kāi xuān miàn chǎng pǔ
ouvrir/frayer/commencer/fonder – haut/élevé – visage/surface/côté/donner sur/farine/nouilles – place/terrain – jardin
De là-haut, on peut apercevoir son jardin

把酒話桑麻
bǎjiǔ huà sāng má
tenir à la main un verre de vin / lever son verre – parole/dire/parler – mûrier – chanvre/lin
Où nous levons notre verre tout en parlant du lin et du mûrier

待到重陽日
dāi dào Chóngyáng rì
rester/demeurer attendre – arriver, parvenir, atteindre/ aller à /à, jusqu’à – Chóngyáng – soleil/jour/temps
J'attendrai jusqu’au jour de la Chongyang

還來就菊花
hái lái jiù júhuā
encore/aussi – venir/arriver/prochain/environ – chrysanthème – chrysanthème fleur
Et jusqu’à ce que les fleurs de chrysanthème s’épanouissent.

Edited by Liu, 01 March 2009 - 05:35 AM.

[Yun]

過故人莊
Visiting an old friend's farm

故人具雞黍
Chicken and millet my old friend has prepared,
邀我至田家
Inviting me to visit his farm.
綠樹村邊合
The green of trees surrounds his village,
青山郭外斜
And that of the hills slopes up from its walls.
開軒面場圃
His window looks out on a vegetable garden;
把酒話桑麻
We drink wine and chat about his mulberry and hemp.
待到重陽日
I will wait until the Double-yang day
還來就菊花
To return and admire the chrysanthemum flowers.

Note: For the Double-yang day and its association with chrysanthemum flowers, see http://en.wikipedia...._Ninth_Festival

[Yun]

Tang Scholar and Liu:
dāi as a reading for 待 is a relatively modern colloquialism that means "stay". The original reading for 待 is dài, in which case it means "wait for". On this, see http://www.zdic.net/...dicBEZdic85.htm

[rovi297]

過故人莊
Visiting an old friend's farm

故人具雞黍
Chicken and millet have my old friend prepared,
邀我至田家
Inviting me to visit his farm.
綠樹村邊合
The green of trees surrounds his village,
青山郭外斜
And that of the hills slopes up from its walls.
開軒面場圃
His window looks out on a vegetable garden;
把酒話桑麻
We drink wine and chat about his mulberry and hemp.
待到重陽日
I will wait until the Double-yang day
還來就菊花
To return and admire the chrysanthemum flowers.

Note: For the Double-yang day and its association with chrysanthemum flowers, see http://en.wikipedia...._Ninth_Festival

Good job, Yun!

But wonder why 'have my old friend prepared' rather than 'blah..blah..my friend has prepared'

[Yun]

Thanks, rovi297!

But wonder why 'have my old friend prepared' rather than 'blah..blah..my friend has prepared'

I believe both are grammatically sound, so it ultimately just comes down to personal preference.

[rovi297]

Thanks, rovi297!



I believe both are grammatically sound, so it ultimately just comes down to personal preference.

But it doesn't make sense, does it?

sth has got sb prepared or sb has got sth prepared?

I've got my hair done = I ask sb to do my hair rather than the othe way around, right?

I don't think it sounds logical to say 'my hair has got me done'

I would say "My old friend has chicken and millet prepared', which means my old friend has asked sb to cook or procure or prepare these food, does it make sense?

Edited by rovi297, 28 February 2009 - 04:09 PM.

[Yun]

I would say "My old friend has chicken and millet prepared'

But that's different from what I intend to say, which is "My old friend has prepared chicken and millet", or "Chicken and millet have been prepared by my old friend." I am using "prepared" as a past-tense verb, rather than an adjective.

"(Noun) has/have (noun) (past-tense verb)" is older English grammar that can still be found in the King James Bible, among other texts. For example:
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

More recent translations would have it as "Jacob I have loved" or "I have loved Jacob", which matches modern speech better but somehow has less of the poetic rhythm. But the King James version certainly does not mean "Jacob has loved me, but Esau has hated me."

[rovi297]

But that's different from what I intend to say, which is "My old friend has prepared chicken and millet", or "Chicken and millet have been prepared by my old friend." I am using "prepared" as a past-tense verb, rather than an adjective.

"(Noun) has/have (noun) (past-tense verb)" is older English grammar that can still be found in the King James Bible, among other texts. For example:
"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

More recent translations would have it as "Jacob I have loved" or "I have loved Jacob", which matches modern speech better but somehow has less of the poetic rhythm. But the King James version certainly does not mean "Jacob has loved me, but Esau has hated me."

have sth done ---done is not an adjective, it is a past participle = either 'to suffer the effects of what sb else does to you' or 'to cause sth to be done for you by sb'

Edited by rovi297, 28 February 2009 - 06:00 PM.

[rovi297]

Well, honestly, I am not at all conversant with the older English grammar, so heartily thank you for sharing it with me.

One more query, in your other translation, your version goes as such as below

別來春半，
Spring has come while we were apart,
觸目柔腸斷。
But the scenes of spring only break my heart.
砌下落梅如雪亂，
Plum petals falling like snow on the stair -
拂了一身還滿。
I sweep them away, but they catch in my hair.

雁來音信無憑，
The wild geese arrive, but no letter they bring;
路遙歸夢難成。
A dream beyond reach is your long journey home;
離恨恰如春草，
Our sorrows - are they not like grass in the spring?
更行更遠還生。
They sprout all around us, wherever we roam.

Is it older English grammar,too?

Edited by Yun, 28 February 2009 - 08:58 PM.

[rovi297]

BTW, my old friend in the line is a third person singular, why have, not has?

I am very curious about it - older English grammar

[Yun]

BTW, my old friend in the line is a third person singular, why have, not has?

Because "chicken and millet" are two things, which requires that they be referenced in the plural. But I agree this is a little tricky, and I am prepared to change it if it is too confusing or sounds strange.

For "they catch in my hair", see definition number 10 at http://www.ldoceonli...tionary/catch_1

[Yun]

Tang Scholar, who would you like to nominate to choose next week's poem?

[rovi297]

Because "chicken and millet" are two things, which requires that they be referenced in the plural. But I agree this is a little tricky, and I am prepared to change it if it is too confusing or sounds strange.

For "they catch in my hair", see definition number 10 at http://www.ldoceonli...tionary/catch_1

With regard to your first answer, to be honest with you, I am not happy with it at all, for you failed to clarify what you just now said about 'Jacob have I loved' as you can easily see my point - there is a contradiction between 'chicken and millet have my old friend prepared' and 'Jacob have I loved"

Given that Jacob is the subject, why not 'has / hath (in terms of the old English)?

Well, if 'chicken and millet' is the subject, does it mean it matches the pattern of 'have sth done' - chicken and millet have sb prepared = have sth done? that is absolutely hilarious.

As for your second answer, Well, I can't find any examples that could slightly match yours. all i know is 'either catch sth or catch sb by / in / on / with sth', etc, and once again, it sounds weird if we say 'flower petals, for instance, fall down, and i sweep them away, but they catch (me) in my hair, or on the other hand, if we just say 'catch in my hair', well, it doesn't make sense at all, I am afraid.

So why not simply say "they keep coming to catch my hair'?

Edited by rovi297, 28 February 2009 - 10:27 PM.

[Tang Scholar]

With regard to your first answer, to be honest with you, I am not happy with it at all, for you failed to clarify what you just now said about 'Jacob have I loved' as you can easily see my point - there is a contradiction between 'chicken and millet have my old friend prepared' and 'Jacob have I loved"

Given that Jacob is the subject, why not 'has / hath (in terms of the old English)?

Well, if 'chicken and millet' is the subject, does it mean it matches the pattern of 'have sth done' - chicken and millet have sb prepared = have sth done? that is absolutely hilarious.

As for your second answer, Well, I can't find any examples that could slightly match yours. all i know is 'either catch sth or catch sb by / in / on / with sth', etc, and once again, it sounds weird if we say 'flower petals, for instance, fall down, and i sweep them away, but they catch (me) in my hair, or on the other hand, if we just say 'catch in my hair', well, it doesn't make sense at all, I am afraid.

So why not simply say "they keep coming to catch my hair'?

Well. I remember a very beautiful sentence of Mark Twain - by the way, on a chinese matter which I do not remember well. Mocking the sentence of "Tails I win, heads you loose" he changed that to "Taels I win, heads you loose". The first sentence expanded means "If the coin shows tails up, I win; if it shows heads, you loose (and therefore I win too). The second sentence, echoing the first one, has a most terrible meaning, and it is that "I win silver and you loose your heads". In this second sentence, the usual order of the phrase in modern English is turned upside down: instead of subject-verb-object, it becomes object-subject-verb.
[I just found out, Mark Twain was criticising western missionary policies in China. See
http://people.virgin...otheperson.html
for the whole article - very interesting.]

I think the English language has a definite word order but in ancient times it was not so rigid as it is today.
I also believe everyone is the owner of his/her text. Others may make suggestions, and even corrections, but they have to be done in a respectful way, and the author has the ultimate word in appraising the suggestions and corrections about what he has written.
But especially, I think that in this forum we are not in the position to feel absolutely right or wrong about matters of English grammar , nor to argue to death about them, so I would ask you to end this discussion.