57 replies to this topic

[Thomas Chen]

Check out this lousy and sloppy website of mine, which I have created a few years ago but never publicized on the Internet... If my interest picks up, I will enhance this site and create another one for Chinese cannons...


http://chinese-gun.f....com/index.html

[TMPikachu]

nice stuff.

So why is it that that I've never heard of a battle where Chinese used guns against European invaders?

[Thomas Chen]

nice stuff.

So why is it that that I've never heard of a battle where Chinese used guns against European invaders?

If I remember correctly, it was the opinion of Joseph Needham, the great sinologist, that Chinese cannons of the late 1500s - early 1600s (indigenous designs as well as copies of Western models) were equivalent to Western cannons in quality...

If I am not wrong, one of the earliest battlefield encounters between the Europeans and the Chinese was when Koxinga using Chinese cannons... had successfully defeated the Dutch who were occupying Taiwan...

[Grigori]

Excellent, hope to see more. The Blue Standard formation looks a lot like a typical European army during the Thirty Years War. I once saw a Qing era drawing of Ming soldiers using those bipodded muskets you had under the Qing era - against Manchu cavalry and running away as their line failed.

I wonder how that breechloading musket worked. Did they manually remove the breech piece in action? It almost look like they were one step away from inventing the metallic cartridge shell. Imagine keeping a few spare breech pieces loaded and ready. . .

One issue:

1. Under the Ming section you wrote "In 1558, a total of 10,000 of such weapons were manufactured for the Chinese Imperial Army". Is that a typo, how did the Ming encounter European matchlock guns so early?

[Thomas Chen]

Excellent, hope to see more. The Blue Standard formation looks a lot like a typical European army during the Thirty Years War. I once saw a Qing era drawing of Ming soldiers using those bipodded muskets you had under the Qing era - against Manchu cavalry and running away as their line failed.

One issue:

1. Under the Ming section you wrote "In 1558, a total of 10,000 of such weapons were manufactured for the Chinese Imperial Army". Is that a typo, how did the Ming encounter European matchlock guns so early?

Yes... those Qing muskets have the bipod feature, a legacy from the Ming...

The Chinese had captured matchlock guns used by the Japanese pirates during the mid-1500s and set about to reproduce them... as they had done with Portguese breech-loading cannons earlier before...

There is one book on Chinese weapons that quotes from the official Ming document Ming Hui Dian 明会典 on the production of 10,000 arquebuses in 1558...

Another academic source states that it was the Chinese leader of a Sino-Japanese pirate band that taught the Japanese pirates based in Kyushu island how to manufacture these weapons... He was captured and the Chinese official in charge gave him the responsibility to make these weapons for the Chinese Imperial Army... The fellow probably learned it from the Portuguese traders/pirates/smugglers he came into contact with...

RE: I wonder how that breechloading musket worked. Did they manually remove the breech piece in action? It almost look like they were one step away from inventing the metallic cartridge shell. Imagine keeping a few spare breech pieces loaded and ready.

The principle is based on the Portuguese breech-loading cannons... You prepare a cartridge filled with gunpowder and a bullet, and slot it into the chamber... insert your fuse and voila... There was no need for ramrods... It was an innovative and cool weapon with a faster reload...

[wlee15]

The Matchlock mechnaism was invented during the 15th century, so it quite conceivable that the matchlock firearms would reach China by then.

[Grigori]

The principle is based on the Portuguese breech-loading cannons... You prepare a cartridge filled with gunpowder and a bullet, and slot it into the chamber... insert your fuse and voila... There was no need for ramrods... It was an innovative and cool weapon with a faster reload...

What was the cartridge material made of? Iron, brass? How was the fuse attached? Do you mean like a external wick? In which case is there still a trigger mechanism?

[HaSY]

I was kinda curious of why the Qing Imperial Cavalry warrior carries many weapon (mathlock,sabre,lance,bows) and how can he use them effectively in battle?

[Yun: HaSY's other post on arrows has been moved to the Bows thread]

Edited by Yun, 22 March 2005 - 07:17 PM.

[Thomas Chen]

Hi guys

I have a soft copy of the Chinese musket manual "Shen Qi Pu" or "Magically Efficient Tools Manual" of 1598, authored by Zhao Shizhen, who developed what is most likely the world's earliest type of breech-loading musket... in 32 jpegs, in a zip file... If you guys want a copy, pls post your email on this thread....

Edited by Thomas Chen, 16 September 2005 - 11:02 AM.

[Wei Feng]

Hi guys

I have a soft copy of the Chinese musket manual "Shen Qi Pu" or "Magically Efficient Tools Manual" of 1598, authored by Zhao Shizhen, who developed what is most likely the world's earliest type of breech-loading musket... in 32 jpegs, in a zip file... If you guys want a copy, pls post your email on this thread....

Can you give me some more info about Chinese musket manual "Shen Qi Pu" or "Magically Efficient Tools Manual" of 1598, authored by Zhao Shizhen?

[Yun]

Shenqi Pu was written in response to deficiencies in Chinese arquebuses observed during the war in Korea. Zhao Shizhen proposed the adoption of the chedian chong, an arquebus with five smaller secondary barrells, and the xunlei chong, a five-barrelled heavy arquebus. Both were designed to increase the rate of fire by allowing one barrell to be fired after another.

Zhao Shizhen also proposed a modification of the arquebus for the windy and rainy weather of the northern frontier. This had a chamber for the pan that could be opened or shut with a switch, and also a rain cover. The weapon was called the xuanyuan chong.

Thomas' computer is having problems right now, but if you send him your e-mail address he will send the Shenqi Pu files to you as soon as he's got it fixed.

[TwinkieDP]

Hi guys

I have a soft copy of the Chinese musket manual "Shen Qi Pu" or "Magically Efficient Tools Manual" of 1598, authored by Zhao Shizhen, who developed what is most likely the world's earliest type of breech-loading musket... in 32 jpegs, in a zip file... If you guys want a copy, pls post your email on this thread....

I'd like a copy of that Mr. Chen
email: danpt2000@yahoo.com

Thanks in advance. I'm really learning a lot about military history of China...

[Altaica Militarica]

Hi guys

I have a soft copy of the Chinese musket manual "Shen Qi Pu" or "Magically Efficient Tools Manual" of 1598, authored by Zhao Shizhen, who developed what is most likely the world's earliest type of breech-loading musket... in 32 jpegs, in a zip file... If you guys want a copy, pls post your email on this thread....

Dear Thomas,

I would like to beg you for a copy of "Shenqi pu".

Please mailto:artak_malik-zoda@mail.ru

If there are any more treatises - I want to get it all (as I try to make the appropriate view on the activity of Qi Jiguang here in Russia).

Waiting for your letter,

Alexey.

[Altaica Militarica]

Shenqi Pu was written in response to deficiencies in Chinese arquebuses observed during the war in Korea. Zhao Shizhen proposed the adoption of the zhidian chong, an arquebus with five smaller secondary barrells, and the shunlei chong, a five-barrelled heavy arquebus. Both were designed to increase the rate of fire by allowing one barrell to be fired after another.

Zhao Shizhen also proposed a modification of the arquebus for the windy and rainy weather of the northern frontier. This had a chamber for the pan that could be opened or shut with a switch, and also a rain cover. The weapon was called the xuanyuan chong.

Thomas' computer is having problems right now, but if you send him your e-mail address he will send the Shenqi Pu files to you as soon as he's got it fixed.

Dear Yun,

Thanks a lot for info.

Have you got any Chinese treatises in your own? The period of late Ming (General Qi etc.) and early Qing would be highly appreciated!!!

Then regarding the rain cover for match - I met in Korean sources that a special cover of oil-soaked paper was invented in 1724 by Korean master to protect match from drizzling rain. What is true?

How did the 5 smaller barrells work? As a revolver? Or were they ignited by turn?

Do you think these 5-barrelled guns were really used in field battles against Japanese or Manchu/Mongols?

Best regards,

Alexey.

[Yun]

Alexey, I'm afraid I am as yet unable to answer your questions as I have not read the Shenqi Pu carefully (I also received my copy from Thomas a few weeks ago). But here is a picture of the Xunlei Chong from the Shenqi Pu: