10 replies to this topic

[light]

How did Li Shimin manage to create a Sheng Shi in such a short time(only in 1 generation time)?

If you look at the Qing Sheng Shi, it took 3 generations of Emperor Kangxi, Yongzheng and Qianlong to create a Sheng Shi.

In the Han dynasty it took 3 generations too from Wen to Jing to Wudi to create a Sheng Shi.

But in the Tang dynasty, it only took 1 generation to create a Sheng Shi.

Was this because Li Shimin was really a very outstanding and wise Emperor? Much more wiser than the Han and Qing Emperors too?

[Yun]

But in the Tang dynasty, it only took 1 generation to create a Sheng Shi.

Depends how you define 盛世. Taizong's reign saw great military success on the northern steppe frontier due to the disunity of the Turks and Tiele and the decisive victories of talented Tang generals like Li Jing. But the real economic prosperity only came in Xuanzong's reign, 100 years later.

In the Han dynasty it took 3 generations too from Wen to Jing to Wudi to create a Sheng Shi.

Again, you are basing it all on military expansion. In reality, Wudi's military conquests and campaigns bankrupted the government. The Han government was very rich in the reigns of emperors Wen and Jing, and Wudi spent it all within his reign, causing much social instability and hardship.

[light]

Depends how you define 盛世. Taizong's reign saw great military success on the northern steppe frontier due to the disunity of the Turks and Tiele and the decisive victories of talented Tang generals like Li Jing. But the real economic prosperity only came in Xuanzong's reign, 100 years later.

Not true. During Taizong reign, the country was already very rich. It was estimated that in the event of a famine, the people had enough money/food to last them for 3 years.

Again, you are basing it all on military expansion. In reality, Wudi's military conquests and campaigns bankrupted the government. The Han government was very rich in the reigns of emperors Wen and Jing, and Wudi spent it all within his reign, causing much social instability and hardship.

Not really true too. Because Wudi also introduced many reforms that bought in alot of money for the country which financed his military operations

[Yun]

During Taizong reign, the country was already very rich. It was estimated that in the event of a famine, the people had enough money/food to last them for 3 years.

What is your source for this?

Wudi also introduced many reforms that bought in alot of money for the country which financed his military operations

Yes, the salt, iron, and wine monopolies, which themselves created social problems while still not being sufficient to finance the wars. If you read the 食货志 of the Shiji and the 盐铁论 (written in the reign of Emperor Yuan and purporting to reconstruct a court debate in 81 BC), you'll see much evidence of the heavy financial costs of Wudi's wars and their failure to bring prosperity to the empire.

[light]

What is your source for this?

There was once a famine during Taizong reign and the government did not use any money to help the people at all because it was estimated that the people had enough savings to last themself for up to 3 years which is more than enough?

[light]

Yes, the salt, iron, and wine monopolies, which themselves created social problems while still not being sufficient to finance the wars. If you read the 食货志 of the Shiji and the 盐铁论 (written in the reign of Emperor Yuan and purporting to reconstruct a court debate in 81 BC), you'll see much evidence of the heavy financial costs of Wudi's wars and their failure to bring prosperity to the empire.

But his wars also dealt a heavy blow to the xiongnus thus removing the threat of the xiongnus and caused the Han empire to expand by gaining alot of lands.

[Yun]

There was once a famine during Taizong reign and the government did not use any money to help the people at all because it was estimated that the people had enough savings to last themself for up to 3 years which is more than enough?

OK, but which book did you read this in?

But his wars also dealt a heavy blow to the xiongnus thus removing the threat of the xiongnus and caused the Han empire to expand by gaining alot of lands.

Is territorial expansion necessarily good for the economy?

[light]

OK, but which book did you read this in?



Is territorial expansion necessarily good for the economy?

Can't remember which book. A few years ago I read it.

The more land you conqueur, your population increases too as the citizens of the conquered land becomes a part of the Han dynasty(initally population decreases due to the large number of people killed in the war but after a few decades later the population of Han dynasty will start to increase when they give birth etc).

More population means more people paying taxes which means more money for the country which boasts the economy. More population also means more people can be recruited to join the army which means a stronger defence force

[Yun]

More population means more people paying taxes which means more money for the country which boasts the economy.

The problem here is that the peoples of some of the conquered lands constantly rebelled against Han rule, costing very heavy military expenses when armies had to be sent to suppress the rebellions. These included the Qiang of eastern Qinghai, the people of Hainan island, and the Yunnan and Guizhou tribes. A rebellion of the Qiang in 61-60 BC cost over 4 billion coins, and the Hainan rebellion of 48-46 BC cost over 300 million coins and the lives of over 10,000 soldiers and support personnel.

In order to not provoke even more rebellions, the native people's taxes had to be kept at a very low, symbolic level, which means they didn't contribute to the economy at all and were instead a heavy burden to it. Eventually Hainan was abandoned in 46 BC because it was so rebellious and so expensive to maintain control over.


Back to the Tang economy. Do you have any other sources to support your argument that in Taizong's reign, the people were very prosperous?

[light]

The problem here is that the peoples of some of the conquered lands constantly rebelled against Han rule, costing very heavy military expenses when armies had to be sent to suppress the rebellions. These included the Qiang of eastern Qinghai, the people of Hainan island, and the Yunnan and Guizhou tribes. A rebellion of the Qiang in 61-60 BC cost over 4 billion coins, and the Hainan rebellion of 48-46 BC cost over 300 million coins and the lives of over 10,000 soldiers and support personnel.

In order to not provoke even more rebellions, the native people's taxes had to be kept at a very low, symbolic level, which means they didn't contribute to the economy at all and were instead a heavy burden to it. Eventually Hainan was abandoned in 46 BC because it was so rebellious and so expensive to maintain control over.

In that case, perhaps the Han dynasty could consider adopting "the vassal state approach" instead-Attack these countries and defeat them but do not conquer them. Make them vassal states of the Han dynasty and acknowledge Han dynasty as their overlord and make them pay tributes every year. If they don't pay, than the Han dynasty will attack them, kill their people and snatch their food, money etc

[hwanginsitein]

In that case, perhaps the Han dynasty could consider adopting "the vassal state approach" instead-Attack these countries and defeat them but do not conquer them. Make them vassal states of the Han dynasty and acknowledge Han dynasty as their overlord and make them pay tributes every year. If they don't pay, than the Han dynasty will attack them, kill their people and snatch their food, money etc

taizong is just a slope
Kaiyuan sheng shi is the really top