39 replies to this topic

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I have stumbled upon some strong evidence that Sumo might have originated in China.

First, the Japanese Kanji for sumo 相撲(相扑) is a Chinese word (xiang pu) that can be traced to the jin dynasty 晋朝. The earliest record with that name can be found in the Jin shu, “相扑下技。不足以别两国优劣。请使二郡更论经国大埋。人物得失。"
Henceforth, the word Xiang Pu would be used throughout history all the way into the Ming period and probably afterward. Xiangpu was another Chinese name for wrestling.

Second, the Dun huang morals and Han dynasty tombs showed pictures of xiang pu wrestlers that are essentially dressed the same way as Japanese sumo wrestlers. They are topless with a thin strap across their buttocks. The Han sumo wrestlers wore longer shorts while the Tang wrestlers wore the strapped under wears.
http://www.google.co.../...=image&cd=1

Third, the rituals in Japanese sumo was very similar to the rituals present in Tang sumo. The Tang bureaucracy in charge of sumo was known as the left and right armies. According to 唐音癸签, ; "左右军槌大鼓，引壮士裸，相薄较劲". "the left and right armies hit the drums, leading the strong warriors in naked, wrestling each other in a battle of strength."
In Japan, before sumo wrestlers entered, it was also recorded in Japan's 古事类苑 that in ancient times, when the sumo wrestlers enter, there were five drums on each side. The bureaucracy for Sumo was also divided into left and right "相扑司"(executive of sumo), which was similar to the Tang division of left and right armies.

Fourth, Sumo first made its appearance in Japan during the Tang period of China. 古事类苑 records Sumo to have rose during the period of 圣武 emperor(725-749), which is the time when Japan is borrowing the most from China and where all the similarities lie(the Tang sumo rules, rituals, and customs were all closer to old Japanese sumo than Han ones).

Of course, Japanese sumo has its own characteristics since its inception, made as a ritual for the shinto gods, but it seem the root of the sport was from China, and saw development later in Japan.

[LongMa]

I have stumbled upon some strong evidence that Sumo might have originated in China.

First, the Japanese Kanji for sumo 相撲(相扑) is a Chinese word (xiang pu) that can be traced to the jin dynasty 晋朝. The earliest record with that name can be found in the Jin shu, “相扑下技。不足以别两国优劣。请使二郡更论经国大埋。人物得失。"
Henceforth, the word Xiang Pu would be used throughout history all the way into the Ming period and probably afterward. Xiangpu was another Chinese name for wrestling.

Second, the Dun huang morals and Han dynasty tombs showed pictures of xiang pu wrestlers that are essentially dressed the same way as Japanese sumo wrestlers. They are topless with a thin strap across their buttocks. The Han sumo wrestlers wore longer shorts while the Tang wrestlers wore the strapped under wears.
http://www.google.co.../...=image&cd=1

Third, the rituals in Japanese sumo was very similar to the rituals present in Tang sumo. The Tang bureaucracy in charge of sumo was known as the left and right armies. According to 唐音癸签, ; "左右军槌大鼓，引壮士裸，相薄较劲". "the left and right armies hit the drums, leading the strong warriors in naked, wrestling each other in a battle of strength."
In Japan, before sumo wrestlers entered, it was also recorded in Japan's 古事类苑 that in ancient times, when the sumo wrestlers enter, there were five drums on each side. The bureaucracy for Sumo was also divided into left and right "相扑司"(executive of sumo), which was similar to the Tang division of left and right armies.

Fourth, Sumo first made its appearance in Japan during the Tang period of China. 古事类苑 records Sumo to have rose during the period of 圣武 emperor(725-749), which is the time when Japan is borrowing the most from China and where all the similarities lie(the Tang sumo rules, rituals, and customs were all closer to old Japanese sumo than Han ones).

Of course, Japanese sumo has its own characteristics since its inception, made as a ritual for the shinto gods, but it seem the root of the sport was from China, and saw development later in Japan.

Did it come directly from China or did it come through Korea? Was there a similar more archaic form of wrestling in Japan or a similar form in Korea before the Tang Dynasty or before Sumo was created in Japan?

Another thing is that it appears that various forms of wrestling have been very popular in North Asian people.

Some have suggested it was brought to Asia by Alexander the Greats Army...I'm not sure the evidence for this, but I know among Turkic people from Turkey to Mongolia, with Mongols, with Koreans, and Japanese wrestling is a big traditional sport.

This leads me to another question. Was this Tang wrestling introduced by contact with Central Asia or Mongolia?

Edited by LongMa, 05 March 2009 - 12:35 PM.

[LongMa]

Before the site hacking Borijigan made a comment...just wondering what it was.

[Kenshinng]

Before the site hacking Borijigan made a comment...just wondering what it was.

Ahh and LongMa you changed your profile picture!

[LongMa]

Ahh and LongMa you changed your profile picture!

Yeah...Afro Samurai.

[Kenshinng]

Yeah...Afro Samurai.

haha i read about it! i sure hope will be able to see Samuel L Jackson in the live action movie

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

Another thing is that it appears that various forms of wrestling have been very popular in North Asian people.

This leads me to another question. Was this Tang wrestling introduced by contact with Central Asia or Mongolia?

There has been no sources on North Asian wrestling at least until the Yuan dynasty.

Some have suggested it was brought to Asia by Alexander the Greats Army...I'm not sure the evidence for this, but I know among Turkic people from Turkey to Mongolia, with Mongols, with Koreans, and Japanese wrestling is a big traditional sport.

The claim of martial arts originating from Pankration is based on two assumptions. The first of the claim is that pankration affected Indian martial arts. The second is that Indian martial arts affected Chinese martial arts, both of which are dubious.
With regards to the first suggestion it must be noted that we have no solid evidence whatsoever to support it, the only basis for that claim was that pankration was earlier than the earliest known Indian martial art(the earliest records date to the 2nd century BC). We don't even know exactly how early martial arts looked like, and just because they share similarities doesn't mean squat since people are bound to create similar techniques for similar objectives, just like how common sense would induce people to use cataphracts as shock units.

As for Indian martial arts influencing Chinese ones, the claim rests on two things. The first is that Boddhidharma influenced Shaolin martial arts, the second was that shaolin martial arts was the origin of Chinese martial arts. Both of these claims has already been debunked by Chinese martial arts historians to death. For the first, it should be noted that the attribution of Boddhidharma to shaolin kungfu dates no earlier than the 19th century. We cannot find any evidence, textual or pictorial which suggest otherwise. Shaolin kungfu during the Ming never mentioned anything about Boddhidharma. As regard to the second point, I must say that it is one of the greatest myths in martial art history. The claim that shaolin martial arts was the origin of all martial arts seem to be an invention of the Qing dynasty when shaolin became prevalent. However, there are no evidence whatsoever that the Shaolin monks practiced martial arts until the late Yuan dynasty at the earliest. The only "evidence" which supporters for an earlier shaolin martial arts history in the Sui dynasty could provide comes from an early shaolin stele mentioning a bandit attack on the temple with the monks resisting, the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and many monks died." 僧徒拒之...贼遂火塔院，院中众宇焉同灭“. Its natural for monks to resist against bandit attacks, and the fact that the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and the monks there shows that Shaolin monks didn't train in any martial arts at the time. In fact we cannot find a single passage on shaolin monks training in martial arts from Tang dynasty sources. Even the term "warrior monk" 武僧 only appeared during the Ming dynasty. So the whole claim that Indian monks came to the shaolin temple, taught martial arts and spread to the rest of China is even more groundless.

Some people also point to similar postures between Chinese martial arts and Yoga. However, it should be pointed out that the combination of Qigong practices, which might have been influenced by Yoga, with martial arts only began during the Ming dynasty, prior to the Ming, Qi gong, spiritual exercises, and martial arts are wholely separate things. So once again, early Chinese martial art has virtually nothing to do with India, not even the evidence for an influence could be found.


On the last note, the claim for Greek origin of wrestling seem to neglect primary Chinese documents on Chinese wrestling. The earliest mentioning of Chinese wrestling dates before any mention of Indian martial arts, and are just as early as Greek Pankration. The Chinese word for early wrestling was Jiao li角力 and for striking was Bo ji 搏击。For example, Zuo Zhuan states; "晋侯梦与楚子搏” "the duke of Jin fought with the marquis of Chu in hand combat." This dates to the year 632, and hand to hand combat was already widespread in China, so the earliest Chinese wrestling is at least as early as Greek wrestling which also dates to the 7th century BC. The Li Ji, a book written in the 5th century BC also mentioned; "天子乃命将帅讲武，习射御，角力" "The son of heaven ordered his generals to study martial affairs, archery, and wrestling." Xunzi goes even more into detail on fighting philosophy； “trick the opponent with hand movements to startle him, then strike."

[doug]

Korean Sumo (SSi Reum) Old name for this is Gak Juh ( 角抵 )
This murul is from Koguryo times name Gak Juh is originated from Chiwoo (Chi You) 角抵
Name was first found from the books written by Sima Qian. It states that this form of art was enjoyed by Chinese
Warring states, Qin, Han

[hongdaozi]

There has been no sources on North Asian wrestling at least until the Yuan dynasty.



The claim of martial arts originating from Pankration is based on two assumptions. The first of the claim is that pankration affected Indian martial arts. The second is that Indian martial arts affected Chinese martial arts, both of which are dubious.
With regards to the first suggestion it must be noted that we have no solid evidence whatsoever to support it, the only basis for that claim was that pankration was earlier than the earliest known Indian martial art(the earliest records date to the 2nd century BC). We don't even know exactly how early martial arts looked like, and just because they share similarities doesn't mean squat since people are bound to create similar techniques for similar objectives, just like how common sense would induce people to use cataphracts as shock units.

As for Indian martial arts influencing Chinese ones, the claim rests on two things. The first is that Boddhidharma influenced Shaolin martial arts, the second was that shaolin martial arts was the origin of Chinese martial arts. Both of these claims has already been debunked by Chinese martial arts historians to death. For the first, it should be noted that the attribution of Boddhidharma to shaolin kungfu dates no earlier than the 19th century. We cannot find any evidence, textual or pictorial which suggest otherwise. Shaolin kungfu during the Ming never mentioned anything about Boddhidharma. As regard to the second point, I must say that it is one of the greatest myths in martial art history. The claim that shaolin martial arts was the origin of all martial arts seem to be an invention of the Qing dynasty when shaolin became prevalent. However, there are no evidence whatsoever that the Shaolin monks practiced martial arts until the late Yuan dynasty at the earliest. The only "evidence" which supporters for an earlier shaolin martial arts history in the Sui dynasty could provide comes from an early shaolin stele mentioning a bandit attack on the temple with the monks resisting, the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and many monks died." 僧徒拒之...贼遂火塔院，院中众宇焉同灭“. Its natural for monks to resist against bandit attacks, and the fact that the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and the monks there shows that Shaolin monks didn't train in any martial arts at the time. In fact we cannot find a single passage on shaolin monks training in martial arts from Tang dynasty sources. Even the term "warrior monk" 武僧 only appeared during the Ming dynasty. So the whole claim that Indian monks came to the shaolin temple, taught martial arts and spread to the rest of China is even more groundless.

Some people also point to similar postures between Chinese martial arts and Yoga. However, it should be pointed out that the combination of Qigong practices, which might have been influenced by Yoga, with martial arts only began during the Ming dynasty, prior to the Ming, Qi gong, spiritual exercises, and martial arts are wholely separate things. So once again, early Chinese martial art has virtually nothing to do with India, not even the evidence for an influence could be found.


On the last note, the claim for Greek origin of wrestling seem to neglect primary Chinese documents on Chinese wrestling. The earliest mentioning of Chinese wrestling dates before any mention of Indian martial arts, and are just as early as Greek Pankration. The Chinese word for early wrestling was Jiao li角力 and for striking was Bo ji 搏击。For example, Zuo Zhuan states; "晋侯梦与楚子搏” "the duke of Jin fought with the marquis of Chu in hand combat." This dates to the year 632, and hand to hand combat was already widespread in China, so the earliest Chinese wrestling is at least as early as Greek wrestling which also dates to the 7th century BC. The Li Ji, a book written in the 5th century BC also mentioned; "天子乃命将帅讲武，习射御，角力" "The son of heaven ordered his generals to study martial affairs, archery, and wrestling." Xunzi goes even more into detail on fighting philosophy； “trick the opponent with hand movements to startle him, then strike."

Nicely summarized and perfectly correct.

[doug]

Just a Question for Borjigin or anybody that knows

I've been hearing that the shaolin monks have been taught martial arts from Bodhidharma. Chief reason being for exercise.
Also I'm a fan of Chinese martial arts drama, that's where I got the impression that the Bodhidharma was one of the founders of the CMA. In the drama Highest form of wu shu is the one created by bodhidharma. So this is total fiction???????
So then what was reason he was portrayed as the founder of CMA???? because TV drama wasn't the only sources.

Edited by doug, 03 May 2009 - 11:31 PM.

[LongMa]

There has been no sources on North Asian wrestling at least until the Yuan dynasty.



The claim of martial arts originating from Pankration is based on two assumptions. The first of the claim is that pankration affected Indian martial arts. The second is that Indian martial arts affected Chinese martial arts, both of which are dubious.
With regards to the first suggestion it must be noted that we have no solid evidence whatsoever to support it, the only basis for that claim was that pankration was earlier than the earliest known Indian martial art(the earliest records date to the 2nd century BC). We don't even know exactly how early martial arts looked like, and just because they share similarities doesn't mean squat since people are bound to create similar techniques for similar objectives, just like how common sense would induce people to use cataphracts as shock units.

As for Indian martial arts influencing Chinese ones, the claim rests on two things. The first is that Boddhidharma influenced Shaolin martial arts, the second was that shaolin martial arts was the origin of Chinese martial arts. Both of these claims has already been debunked by Chinese martial arts historians to death. For the first, it should be noted that the attribution of Boddhidharma to shaolin kungfu dates no earlier than the 19th century. We cannot find any evidence, textual or pictorial which suggest otherwise. Shaolin kungfu during the Ming never mentioned anything about Boddhidharma. As regard to the second point, I must say that it is one of the greatest myths in martial art history. The claim that shaolin martial arts was the origin of all martial arts seem to be an invention of the Qing dynasty when shaolin became prevalent. However, there are no evidence whatsoever that the Shaolin monks practiced martial arts until the late Yuan dynasty at the earliest. The only "evidence" which supporters for an earlier shaolin martial arts history in the Sui dynasty could provide comes from an early shaolin stele mentioning a bandit attack on the temple with the monks resisting, the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and many monks died." 僧徒拒之...贼遂火塔院，院中众宇焉同灭“. Its natural for monks to resist against bandit attacks, and the fact that the bandits succeeded in burning the temple and the monks there shows that Shaolin monks didn't train in any martial arts at the time. In fact we cannot find a single passage on shaolin monks training in martial arts from Tang dynasty sources. Even the term "warrior monk" 武僧 only appeared during the Ming dynasty. So the whole claim that Indian monks came to the shaolin temple, taught martial arts and spread to the rest of China is even more groundless.

Some people also point to similar postures between Chinese martial arts and Yoga. However, it should be pointed out that the combination of Qigong practices, which might have been influenced by Yoga, with martial arts only began during the Ming dynasty, prior to the Ming, Qi gong, spiritual exercises, and martial arts are wholely separate things. So once again, early Chinese martial art has virtually nothing to do with India, not even the evidence for an influence could be found.


On the last note, the claim for Greek origin of wrestling seem to neglect primary Chinese documents on Chinese wrestling. The earliest mentioning of Chinese wrestling dates before any mention of Indian martial arts, and are just as early as Greek Pankration. The Chinese word for early wrestling was Jiao li角力 and for striking was Bo ji 搏击。For example, Zuo Zhuan states; "晋侯梦与楚子搏” "the duke of Jin fought with the marquis of Chu in hand combat." This dates to the year 632, and hand to hand combat was already widespread in China, so the earliest Chinese wrestling is at least as early as Greek wrestling which also dates to the 7th century BC. The Li Ji, a book written in the 5th century BC also mentioned; "天子乃命将帅讲武，习射御，角力" "The son of heaven ordered his generals to study martial affairs, archery, and wrestling." Xunzi goes even more into detail on fighting philosophy； “trick the opponent with hand movements to startle him, then strike."

Thank you for re-posting this, it was highly informative.

[SNK_1408]

I don't know if Sumo was originated from Tang China. I think this is just wrong because wrestling was existed long before this period as well.

From my understanding, Chinese wrestling is Shuai jiao.
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Shuai_Jiao

And Mongolian wrestling
http://en.wikipedia....olian_wrestling

I'm sure each country or tribes had similar wrestling style for sporting competition or to train fighting men etc.. but I hardly believe Japanese Sumo is related or even have link with Chinese wrestling.

I don't know if I was ignorant or never take interested in Chinese wrestling, but China is not well known for wrestling like other top wrestling nations.

Sumo is normally regarded as traditional modern Japanese MA, it has very strong ties with Shinto theme where it was used during ritual dance. I'm sure some of the elements were shared through out the East Asian regions, which resulted in formation of modern Sumo. because each different styles of wrestling have basic similarity.

Korean Ssireum is different from Japanese Sumo, it doesn't have any association with ritual, religion, festivity and actual martial art. It was purely formed from primitive form of fighting, which every men can contest against opponent to show his strength and stamina and bases on history, its much much older than Mongolian wrestling style and Sumo. Ssireum is done at every villages and towns through out Korea. Because of popularity, they have modern competition that take prime TV show every year. There is yearly competition and the winners get big sums of prize and some received celebrity treatment.

In Japan, there are special school or dojang for Sumo. In Korea there is no Ssireum school, because it doesn't have fixed form. Now days, there are some clubs & associations related to wrestling, but every Korean school practice both modern wrestling and Ssireum at their school gymnasium.

[Borjigin Ayurbarwada]

I'm sure each country or tribes had similar wrestling style for sporting competition or to train fighting men etc.. but I hardly believe Japanese Sumo is related or even have link with Chinese wrestling.

We are talking about the sport of Sumo here, not just any wrestling. Just like how the sport of boxing is now widespread all over the world despite the fact that locals also have other native forms of hand combat. All evidence points to the fact that the early Japanese game of sumo, from its clothing, name, to rituals, are the same as early Chinese sumo, and the period that it started sumo also coincided with the Taiko reform, when Japan is taking Tang culture heavily.

I don't know if I was ignorant or never take interested in Chinese wrestling, but China is not well known for wrestling like other top wrestling nations.

Aside from the accuracy of this statement, it has nothing to do with 7th century wrestling. Your entire post is irrelevant to this topic because its anachronistic and modern oriented. We are talking about the early spread of sumo to Japan from China, so leave modern wrestling out of this because its impertinent to the time period under discussion. Martial arts is not static. It changes over time; early Chinese wrestling is probably very different from modern Chinese wrestling, in fact I suspect that Japanese wrestling might be closer to what the original Chinese wrestling looked like. The Han-Song game of Xiang Pu(Sumo) was an aristocratic game with professional wrestlers at court playing it. When the Mongols took over, this game seem to have disappeared and replaced by Shuai Jiao at the court. Modern Chinese wrestling has some Mongolian influence along with new developments among the civilians during the Ming and Qing. The Japanese obviously developed their own style of sumo and it evolved over time. But the introduction of sumo to Japan seemed to have came from China.

Sumo is normally regarded as traditional modern Japanese MA, it has very strong ties with Shinto theme where it was used during ritual dance. I'm sure some of the elements were shared through out the East Asian regions, which resulted in formation of modern Sumo. because each different styles of wrestling have basic similarity.

What tradition says does not always stand up to scholarly scrutiny, and you should know that by now since this is a history forum. And the tie with Shinto doesn't neglect the fact that the sport seems to have been taken from the Tang dynasty.

Edited by Borjigin Ayurbarwada, 05 May 2009 - 12:52 PM.

[SNK_1408]

We are talking about the sport of Sumo here, not just any wrestling. Just like how the sport of boxing is now widespread all over the world despite the fact that locals also have other native forms of hand combat. All evidence points to the fact that the early Japanese game of sumo, from its clothing, name, to rituals, are the same as early Chinese sumo, and the period that it started sumo also coincided with the Taiko reform, when Japan is taking Tang culture heavily.

So according to your logic and research, Sumo is originated from Tang Dynasty?
I can understand the influence from Tang era, but I think it's pointless to link Japanese Sumo with ancient Chinese wrestling. You sound like Sumo is more special than other asian wrestling styles.

The clothing, name and rituals can adopted or even copied, you hardly see these tradition from today's Chinese wrestling.
So does it could be mean, Tang could actually adopted from Japanese Sumo? and why not?

I understand Tang destroyed most of Goguryeo, and even took some of Goguryeo people as well, from Korean prospective, Japanese Sumo have some link between ancient Korean wrestling called Ssireum, which can be seen from ancient Goguryeo tomb paintings. The ritual before the match and after the match & rules are very similar too if you have never studied Korean wrestling.

Goguryeo is lot older than Tang Dynasty and probably have more influenced over Japan than Tang before (archaeological evidence prove this), so it's questionable case when you tried paint Sumo as Tang's origin.

Did you know, there are many mountains and rivers in Japan are actually named after many Goguryeo's mountain/river names proving many Goguryeo expatiates permanently lived on Japan.

Guess who started Taiko reform? Nakatomi no Kamatari; founder of one of the Japan's famous Fujiwara clan.
Kamatari's defeat of Soga clan is also well documented in Korean records, both clans had family members and trading houses at Baekje and Silla Kingdoms. Even Japanese scholars know about ancient Korean Kingdoms' influence on Asuka culture.

[WangGeon]

That "Tomb of the Wrestlers" wall mural depicting the wrestling match noticeably features West Asian / Middle Eastern people performing wrestling in the presence of a Goguryeo aristocrat. I wouldn't be quick to say that it depicts Korean ssireum. It looks like ssireum and may have been its precursor, but it might not definitely be ssireum as we know ssireum now.

A lot of continental culture (especially culture of the Tang Empire) entered Japan via the Korean peninsula. It's quite possible that while the "origin" (and I'm putting "origin" in quotation marks because we simply can't be absolutely sure) had its roots somewhere on the continent, perhaps the Tang Empire or its predecessors, it went through Northeast Asia before permeating into Japan. In which case, the Japanese would have something reminiscent of a "Chinese" wrestling form, but pronounced in the vocabulary of Northeast Asian and Korean peoples. This is not to undercut the unique transformation that occurs during the processes of localization and indigenization, of course.

A quick note on the Shinto connection - "Shinto" as a unique religious entity didn't exist until centuries after the Taiko Reforms. In the classical period of Japan (before the "medieval" warrior government periods), there were several local cults, folk religions, etc. but there wasn't a singular "Shinto."

Edited by WangGeon, 05 May 2009 - 08:06 PM.