14 replies to this topic

[大泽升龙]

How is this concept developed? Why a monotheism like Judaism and Christianity needs many other supreme beings than God? I couldn't find an equivalent concept for "Angel" in any Chinese mythology, unlike gods and ghosts.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 05 April 2009 - 06:28 PM.

[ghostexorcist]

How is this concept developed? Why a monotheism like Judaism and Christianity needs many other supreme beings than God? I couldn't find an equivalent concept for "Angel" in any Chinese mythology, unlike gods and ghosts.

I recently read a paper on the development of the soul. Many cultures have depicted the human soul as a bird flying to heaven. For instance, the soul of the Egyptians was a bird with a human head. Other cultures eventually began to depict the soul as a human with bird wings.

(I must confess that I didn't read the entire paper because I was only looking for a source to validated my comparison between the concept of the "bird soul" and a character from the play "Trifles" for my English class. I'll probably read the entire thing eventually. It's 16 pages. See the citation below)

I just quickly scanned through the paper and it looks like the soul depicted as a human with wings eventually became the carriers by which the human soul made its way to heaven. They would intercept the soul when it left the body. Those who were not worthy were not intercepted by angels. Medieval art often depicted angels and demons fighting over the soul. So that should tell you who got the soul not grabbed by the angel.


--------------------

source:

Moshe Barasch. "The Departing Soul. The Long Life of a Medieval Creation" Artibus et Historiae, Vol. 26, No. 52 (2005), pp. 13-28

Edited by ghostexorcist, 06 April 2009 - 01:14 AM.

[大泽升龙]

I just quickly scanned through the paper and it looks like the soul depicted as a human with wings eventually became the carriers by which the human soul made its way to heaven. They would intercept the soul when it left the body. Those who were not worthy were not intercepted by angels. Medieval art often depicted angels and demons fighting over the soul. So that should tell you who got the soul not grabbed by the angel.

Yes, but my question is if an angel is just a soul carrier to the heaven, why should it be endowed sub-god power like michael and gabriel depicted especially in Catholics. I can conceive another device like two pipe lines - good and evil - connected to every human being's soul and the God will decide whether it should be collected by the good pipe to the heaven or the evil pipe to the hell, then no angel is needed at all.

[mariusj]

Angels are basically messenger of God.

In Chinese mythology, plenty of immortals acts as messenger of God, not to say may Imperial Officials are called 'Tian Shi,' Heavenly Messenger, the same fitting translation for Angel.

I can totally see why Angels are given power that is akin to God though not quite the same - as a representation of someone, you must be authorized to represent them, in this case, God. If Angels, who bring words and judgment of God, cannot fully represent God [were they to have no power] then they really aren't useful. So in order for Angels to carry out the will of God, they must be empowered.

[ophelia]

Yes, but my question is if an angel is just a soul carrier to the heaven...

They are not! From Wikipedia:

The word angel in English is a fusion of the Old English word engel (with a hard g) and the Old French angele. Both derive from the Latin angelus, and thence the Koine Greek angellos ('messenger') used in the Septuagint to translate the Hebrew mal'akh (yehowah) "messenger (of Yahweh)"

The Bible uses the terms מלאך אלהים (melakh Elohim; messenger of God), מלאך יהוה (melakh Adonai; messenger of the Lord), בני אלוהים (b'nai Elohim; sons of God) and הקודשים (ha-qodeshim; the holy ones) to refer to beings traditionally interpreted as angels. Other terms are used in later texts, such as העוליונים (the upper ones). Daniel is the first biblical figure to refer to individual angels by name.

In post-Biblical Judaism, certain angels came to take on a particular significance and developed unique personalities and roles

[...]

Early Christians took over Jewish ideas of angels. In the early stage, the Christian concept of an angel shifted between the angel as a messenger of God and a manifestation of God himself. Later came identification of individual angelic messengers: (Raphael, Gabriel, Michael, and Uriel). Then, in the space of little more than two centuries (from the third to the fifth) the image of angels took on definite characteristics both in theology and in art.

By the late fourth century, the Church Fathers agreed that there were different categories of angels, with appropriate missions and activities assigned to them. Some theologians had proposed that Jesus was not divine but on the level of immaterial beings subordinate to the Trinity. The resolution of this Trinitarian dispute included the development of doctrine about angels. The angels are represented throughout the Christian Bible as a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men.

As you can see, Angels were never (or only at a very late stage) "carriers of souls". In the New Testament, it is an angel that announces the birth of Jesus to his mother, and to the world. And so on.
Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Btw, as mariusj said, I think the beings that come closer to angels in Chinese culture could be the Tianshi, or the Immortals.

Edited by ophelia, 07 April 2009 - 03:40 AM.

[Gan]

From what I know about this topic, in Christianity, more specifically among Evangelicals/Protestants and other similar groups, some believers literally believe in Angels as carrying out specific orders for God or a guardian angel to watch over them, individually and collectively. Not everyone thinks the same way, but it's just something I picked up growing up among many Christians, interacting with them and studying a bit on my own. I think if taken with this context, many dieties among Chinese traditional folk religions would have been considered as such, except they are worshipped whereas in the monotheistic faiths they are not supposed to.

In Judaism, there is actually a heirarchy of angeles, and they basically carry out specific orders as well. The main difference would probably be appearence and the relationship between the Angels and God are more or less complex. Supposedly, Angels in Judaism are really ugly, can be mistaken as a demon among those not familiar with Jewish studies. From what I read, one description (this is supposedly, does not actually mean one saw one)says that some Angels, like the one that scared Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, had six wings with a very ugly face similar to the gargoyles you see on some old buildings. Some have no appearence, and according to some stories, several mystics, or people considered as such, have mistaken them to be the Almighty.

The relationship between the Angels and God is suppose to be one way, although one may hear of Angels debating with God, it's not necessary a confrontation as in Christianity's case of Fallen Angels. Between Angels and Humans, they can actually work together and in some cases, Angels have to obey humans. So I guess this can be kind of similar to how some Chinese folk religions use amulets and spells to direct spirits or other supernatural forces, in their favor. However there is a very complicated set of rules which I haven't read or heard all of them yet.

In Islam, at least from what I know so far, almost the same thing as Judaism, but there is another set of more complex characters known as the Jinn. The Jinn are beings created by fire and also possessed free will as Humans. That's kind of a trademark of Islam whereas in Judaism, Angels do not but Christianity is kind of in the middle. The Jinn live in an alternative universe connected to ours but invisible and they have their own realms and sophisticated societies, almost like a civilization. The appearences are varied as some can look like animals, other humans and others beyond anything on Earth. They can mess with our world and we can mess with theirs in theory though some people don't believe that could happen. They're not like Angels where they are given specific orders from God, though it can happen but the reason why they exist, at least from what I heard, is that they are another sign of God's power for humans to be in awe of. Some people say they are just another example of synchronizing of the the different beliefs before Islam existed into that religion, kind of similar to the different Pagan elements in Christianity.

I guess in parallel to Chinese Folk Religions, they would be similar to the different Kingdoms of Spirits and Demons, like in Journey of the West. Though the world of the Jinn should not be that visible, in theory.

So far, that's what I can summarize.

[Honam]

How is this concept developed? Why a monotheism like Judaism and Christianity needs many other supreme beings than God? I couldn't find an equivalent concept for "Angel" in any Chinese mythology, unlike gods and ghosts.

Angels are remains of pre-Judaism/pre-Christian beliefs (ie. Babylonian and Assyrian winged gods). You can find the same idea/representation of divine messengers even in Greek mythology, specially in Oriental cults. Some scholars sustain that Moses was not a monotheist, but an henotheist who believed in the existence of other Gods but worshipped only the one he found more powerful (hence, "the God OF Israel", "Yahweh is a jelous god"...). Angels, then, were just a logical derivation of contemporary cults. Note that, in early Greek creation myths, Eros is needed to communicate between Heaven and Earth, and it's not surprising that he is represented with wings and being born from an egg. In Chinese Philosophy, the Five Phases (the so called Five Elements) had a similar function of establishing a comunication, relation or paralellism between Heaven and Earth. Christianity, however, needs "persons" or "personal gods" to accomplish this.

And for the concepts of "gods" and "ghosts", they should be taken with precaution. Jewish/Christian God is a personal God and, more specifically, He is understood as a person. Greek gods were generally taken as forces of nature and not as real persons, no matter how divine they could be (and so, divine Greek entities were not mean to be obeyed per se, you basically had no choice since they were natural forces). Chinese concepts of soul and after world are also quite different from Christianity, and so are ghosts. Ghosts are supposed to enbody some material component in Chinese folk beliefs, while for the Western world they are immaterial souls.

[William O'Chee]

Okay, here goes with a brief summary of the theology of angels in Judaism and Christianity (they have the same views). I shall avoid the sociological analysis, and concentrate solely on the theological and scriptural.

As the Catholic Encyclopedia explains, angels are "a body of spiritual beings intermediate between God and men." For example, it is stated in Psalm 8:6 "You have made him (man) a little less than the angels". Throughout the Bible, angels appear either as messengers from God to men, or as attendants upon God's throne.

The key point to note is that angels are created beings, that is they are created by God, and are not demi-gods, or lesser gods. Nor are they spirits independent of God's will.

The Bible contains descriptions of different categories, or a hierarchy of angels. Thomas Aquinas, in Summa Theologica, describes nine orders of angels as follows:

• Seraphim
  
• Cherubim
  
• Thrones
  
• Dominions
  
• Virtues
  
• Powers
  
• Principalities
  
• Archangels
  
• Angels

Seraphim are attested in Isaiah as being the principal attendants upon God, and having six wings.

Cherubim are described in Ezekiel as having four faces: those of an ox, a man, a lion and an eagle. They are also mentioned in Genesis, 1 Kings and Revelation.

Thrones are mentioned in Colossians and also Revelation.

Archangels appear in several parts of the Old and New Testaments, for example the archangels Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael, although the Bible refers to there being seven archangels in total.

Angels appear frequently in the New Testament, for example an angel appears to inform Zechariah that he will have a son, who becomes John the Baptist. Another angel famously speaks to Mary Magdalene to inform her that Christ has risen from the tomb.

It should be noted that the Angels of the New and Old Testament are at all times engaged in the will of God. This concept of an angel is very different from that commonly invoked by new age spiritualists, that is some sort of spirit with whom people can initiate a dialogue at their own volition.

For those wanting a more detailed discussion of the matter from the point of view of Christian theology, can I suggest you visit Catholic Encyclopedia (Angels)

[Honam]

Nice resume Thanx!

Does the Bible clearly state that Angels were created by God?

[William O'Chee]

Nice resume Thanx!

Does the Bible clearly state that Angels were created by God?

Yes, it does, and is fairly emphatic on this point. For example, Psalm 148:2 says:

"Praise ye him, all his angels: praise him all ye stars of light"

and continues at verse 5 with:

"Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded and they were created."

More emphatically, St Paul in Colossians 1:16 states:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him."

Doctrinally, this is picked up by the Council of Nicaea in the Nicene Creed, which states:

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.

or, in translation into English:

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made." [Emphasis added.]

Christ is begotten of the Father and not made because this means he is co-eternal with the Father. This separates him from the Angels since nothing else (other than the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Trinity) stands apart from creation. When the Nicene Creed "says through Him all things were made", that includes the angels, who are part of God's creation.

Edited by William O'Chee, 30 January 2010 - 02:20 AM.

[Honam]

Yes, it does, and is fairly emphatic on this point. For example, Psalm 148:2 says:

"Praise ye him, all his angels: praise him all ye stars of light"

and continues at verse 5 with:

"Let them praise the name of the Lord: for he commanded and they were created."

More emphatically, St Paul in Colossians 1:16 states:

"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and for him."

Doctrinally, this is picked up by the Council of Nicaea in the Nicene Creed, which states:

Καὶ εἰς ἕνα Κύριον Ἰησοῦν Χριστόν, τὸν Υἱὸν τοῦ Θεοῦ τὸν μονογενῆ, τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων φῶς ἐκ φωτός, Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ, γεννηθέντα οὐ ποιηθέντα, ὁμοούσιον τῷ Πατρί, δι' οὗ τὰ πάντα ἐγένετο.

or, in translation into English:

"We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made." [Emphasis added.]

Christ is begotten of the Father and not made because this means he is co-eternal with the Father. This separates him from the Angels since nothing else (other than the Holy Spirit, the third part of the Trinity) stands apart from creation. When the Nicene Creed "says through Him all things were made", that includes the angels, who are part of God's creation.

Thx for the answer! I was actually talking about the Old Testament, but verse 5 does clearly say it.

[qrasy]

Angels are remains of pre-Judaism/pre-Christian beliefs (ie. Babylonian and Assyrian winged gods).

Perhaps it's more of a mixture.
I don't see anywhere in Old Testament that writes that all of God's messengers had wings.

In Chinese Philosophy, the Five Phases (the so called Five Elements) had a similar function of establishing a comunication, relation or paralellism between Heaven and Earth. Christianity, however, needs "persons" or "personal gods" to accomplish this.

I'm not sure how Chinese ever mentioned about 5 elements as a manner of communication.
It's translated "5 elements" as it represented 5 natural forces. More similar to the 4 Western elements.

Greek gods were generally taken as forces of nature and not as real persons, no matter how divine they could be (and so, divine Greek entities were not mean to be obeyed per se, you basically had no choice since they were natural forces).

Not sure why you perceive them as non-persons. The Greek Gods do have personalities in the Greek legend.
It's more than even just personality, however...
The bodies also resembled humans. So.. Uranus could have his lower body part cut away, Zeus could be forced to sleep by the god of sleep (Hypnos?); they can can have husbands and wives, can reproduce... and can even reproduce with humans (Hercules and Helen of Troy).

As far as I know, in the Greek legend, humans were created based on gods, too.

Chinese concepts of soul and after world are also quite different from Christianity, and so are ghosts. Ghosts are supposed to enbody some material component in Chinese folk beliefs, while for the Western world they are immaterial souls.

Indeed in Chinese they should have bodies as many have corporeal punishments in hell. Though then it made me wonder as they become immaterial as soon as they enter the human world (for Chinese also believed that they can visit humans as well).

Angels appear frequently in the New Testament, for example an angel appears to inform Zechariah that he will have a son, who becomes John the Baptist. Another angel famously speaks to Mary Magdalene to inform her that Christ has risen from the tomb.

I can find a few occasions of angels in Old Testament, though perhaps they are not famous compared to the new testament. Bible also doesn't name them.

It should be noted that the Angels of the New and Old Testament are at all times engaged in the will of God. This concept of an angel is very different from that commonly invoked by new age spiritualists, that is some sort of spirit with whom people can initiate a dialogue at their own volition.

But then, while "Angel" mean "messenger", it's not stated anywhere whether they have free will or not (though there's one verse that describes them as servants).

There's another view that some angels became devils following Satan... though I can't find any reference in the Old Testament.

Christ is begotten of the Father and not made because this means he is co-eternal with the Father.

In many languages the translation of "beget" often have some sort of connotation more than just Chinese "生".
If I'm not wrong, that was one of the things in Christianity that bothers the Muslims.

Edited by qrasy, 30 January 2010 - 02:45 AM.

[Honam]

I'm not sure how Chinese ever mentioned about 5 elements as a manner of communication.
It's translated "5 elements" as it represented 5 natural forces. More similar to the 4 Western elements.

The idea of "wuxing" as "elements" was an invention of Matteo Ricci. His idea was that Chinese originally had "four elements", but Buddhist thought corrupted them. I don´t see how "xing" can be understood as "element" in any way. Needham reads them as "ways of communication" and translates them as "Five Phases", the name currently sinology uses. I see them more as ways of transformation of nature, which keep the correspondence between Heaven (4 seasons and so on) and Earth together.

Not sure why you perceive them as non-persons. The Greek Gods do have personalities in the Greek legend.

Greek philosophers take them mainly as forces, and their myths as representations of natural phenomena or moral teachings. I don't mean they do not have personalities, or a human body, but that they were not understood as having those in reality, as being real actual entities.

The bodies also resembled humans. So.. Uranus could have his lower body part cut away, Zeus could be forced to sleep by the god of sleep Hypnos; they can can have husbands and wives, can reproduce... and can even reproduce with humans (Hercules and Helen of Troy).

Educated ppl in Greece never believed those myths were meant to be taken literally. Gods usually don´t take part in the human world, only in the heroic world previous to the actual one.

Indeed in Chinese they should have bodies as many have corporeal punishments in hell. Though then it made me wonder as they become immaterial as soon as they enter the human world (for Chinese also believed that they can visit humans as well).

Ghost (in pre-Han/Han China) can be material if both souls don´t separate after death. That is to say, both souls leave the body but don´t go in different ways (that´s the case of vengeful ghost in Han times). Also, if the terrestial soul does not receive proper sacrifices, it can come back and hurt humans (errant ghost). Not sure if they can become material (I don´t remember it is even made explicit) or just act by way of possessing or bringing bad luck.

[ghostexorcist]

There is a division of Karaite Judaism that believes the world was created by angels and not God because he is superior to the physical realm. Therefore, according to them, by creating the angels, God indirectly created the world.

Edited by ghostexorcist, 30 January 2010 - 06:33 AM.

[William O'Chee]

There is a division of Karaite Judaism that believes the world was created by angels and not God because he is superior to the physical realm. Therefore, according to them, by creating the angels, God indirectly created the world.

This has some analogues in some very strange offshoots of Christianity also. I shall have to dig it up.