8 replies to this topic

[pi_nong_tai_lao]

[Dongbei]

This is interesting, although maybe a bit speculative.

Being isolating, just like old Chinese, it would seem that Tai languages would be especially suitable to be written with Chinese characters.
Were they ever?

[pi_nong_tai_lao]

This is interesting, although maybe a bit speculative.

Being isolating, just like old Chinese, it would seem that Tai languages would be especially suitable to be written with Chinese characters.
Were they ever?

Sure,

Zhuang, Bouyei, Maonan, Shui, Dong were all written with Chinese characters.


The Chinese-based writing system of the Zhuang language
http://www.persee.fr...m_29_2_1573.pdf

[pi_nong_tai_lao]

Sawndip Sawdenj (Sawndip Dictionary), 古壮字字典 Gǔ Zhuàngzì Zìdiàn (Dictionary of Ancient Zhuang Characters)

http://www.zshare.ne...574801a7278ede/

[Dongbei]

Thank you, this is very interesting. I never knew how widely Han characters had been used, or how many variants that had appeared.

[大泽升龙]

This is interesting, although maybe a bit speculative.

Being isolating, just like old Chinese, it would seem that Tai languages would be especially suitable to be written with Chinese characters.
Were they ever?

If you mean monosyllabic, yes all those languages are suitable to write in characters in which case the writing and speaking can consist; you can actually write all languages in characters but you need extra aid to denote the sound in which case the writing and speaking won't consist, one successful practice is the Kanji usage in Japanese language.

[qrasy]

http://www.persee.fr...m_20_2_1345.pdf

It's interesting to note that some words in the Chinese translation as on another thread were ignored/replaced in this article, and it leads to rather different result.

The poem was first deciphered by a Zhuang professor, Shangfang a Chinese scholar later deciphered the poem using modern Thai language.

Even though the data is from modern Thai, actually it comes from a much earlier writing system, which was designed for old Thai rather than modern Thai. That's also why the article says that it's the oldest form of writing in Tai languages.

If you mean monosyllabic, yes all those languages are suitable to write in characters in which case the writing and speaking can consist; you can actually write all languages in characters but you need extra aid to denote the sound in which case the writing and speaking won't consist, one successful practice is the Kanji usage in Japanese language.

The biggest problem would not be with monosyllabicity; in polysyllabic cases we only need to add more characters. We do have polysyllabic words in Chinese too, e.g. 葡萄, 駱駝.
The problem will be more around changes in word that doesn't really change the number of syllables e.g. bite -> bites, bit; goose -> geese
And a bigger problem with characters should be if there's too many syllable structures, for example in English there are complicated structures like "splints" and "strengths", and no one is sure about how many syllables exist in English.

Japanese only have very few types of syllables, so it's ok. And then the Kanji usage in Japanese is more meaning-oriented: it often doesn't represent a syllable. We can have 3 Kanji for 4 syllables, 1 Kanji for 5 syllables and other sorts of reading combination.

Edited by qrasy, 06 May 2009 - 07:20 AM.

[大泽升龙]

The biggest problem would not be with monosyllabicity; in polysyllabic cases we only need to add more characters. We do have polysyllabic words in Chinese too, e.g. 葡萄, 駱駝.

Due to the independence of every Chinese characters, it is still possible to assign individual meanings to each Chinese characters in those lian-mian (morpheme-continuous) words, like 凤凰，鸳鸯，麒麟，……

The problem will be more around changes in word that doesn't really change the number of syllables e.g. bite -> bites, bit; goose -> geese
And a bigger problem with characters should be if there's too many syllable structures, for example in English there are complicated structures like "splints" and "strengths", and no one is sure about how many syllables exist in English.

Those consonant clusters are indeed the prototypes of multi-syllablic words which they originated and evolved from, just like srbia -> serbia. Your example like "splints" and "strengths" can be easily syllabified by add a weak schwa sound after some consonants like "se-pe-lin-tse" and "se-treng-the-se". Otherwise, you can just chop off some consonants to make the word more monosyllabic like "pin/lin" and "teng/reng", to distinguish the different meanings of sound-like words different tones can be assigned to them.

Japanese only have very few types of syllables, so it's ok. And then the Kanji usage in Japanese is more meaning-oriented: it often doesn't represent a syllable. We can have 3 Kanji for 4 syllables, 1 Kanji for 5 syllables and other sorts of reading combination.

In fact, there is no requirement for every character to be monosyllabic. In Chinese, the characters become monosyllabic because of phonolocial reasons.

Edited by 大泽升龙, 06 May 2009 - 06:29 PM.

[qrasy]

The thing for isolating languages are, you don't have to worry about "-s" or "oo->ee" as in English.
For the case of "-s" it's inconvenient to represent very similar meanings+sounds with different characters. And if you choose to use the same character to represent the changed form as well, you may lose the information of e.g. past tense.

Due to the independence of every Chinese characters, it is still possible to assign individual meanings to each Chinese characters in those lian-mian (morpheme-continuous) words, like 凤凰，鸳鸯，麒麟，……

I think it's habit of Chinese writing. It's said that for example "蝴蝶" was a splitting from "夾" so actually both of them can't stand alone and have meanings, but later people try to assign the meaning to them.

Those consonant clusters are indeed the prototypes of multi-syllablic words which they originated and evolved from, just like srbia -> serbia.

Sometimes it's reverse, though, some clusters are from deletion of vowels in polysyllabic words. We have examples of "silent e" that was once not silent.

Your example like "splints" and "strengths" can be easily syllabified by add a weak schwa sound after some consonants like "se-pe-lin-tse" and "se-treng-the-se". Otherwise, you can just chop off some consonants to make the word more monosyllabic like "pin/lin" and "teng/reng", to distinguish the different meanings of sound-like words different tones can be assigned to them.

Actually, those are not a problem as long as you have the creativity to create new characters (those surely will be a problem for syllabary, though).
For characters, those are just something that makes 假借 more troublesome. Though we do have cases where we ignore minor differences in reading for 假借.

In fact, there is no requirement for every character to be monosyllabic. In Chinese, the characters become monosyllabic because of phonolocial reasons.

Again, it's due to the habit of Chinese writing. Otherwise we will not find things like "麒麟".

Edited by qrasy, 07 May 2009 - 11:00 AM.