47 replies to this topic

[calibre2001]

I haven't come across a topic dedicated to mandarin learners sharing their ups and downs in learning the language. So I hope this will start the ball rolling.

I've been learning Mandarin for the pass 3 years (on and off). One of my goals is to be able to read the newspapers (my benchmark of literacy). So I've been building my vocabulary base (characters, words, sayings) as well as grammar because that is key to understanding. It seems after all that hard work, I can only read about 60% of newspapers on average, with the occasional dictionary look up. And this is not consistent; what I mean is on a good day I can read nearly everything feeling happy and on another I realise that I don't understand everything that's being written. A check with chinese language books used by native chinese speakers reveals that my knowledge is only equivalent to that of a 8 year old's. I find this all rather depressing. Would be nice to hear what other learners are experiencing.

[LiYa]

Do not worry. Mandarin is one of the hardest languages to learn. On the other hand, 3 years - it's not so long! If you learn more time, you will understand more and more.

[Dongbei]

I've studied for less than one year, but much of it on my own and with little regularity and not too many opportunities to practice.

Of course, I don't understand much at all of any given text. Either there's a lot of unknown characters, or the text looks like someone wrote some characters I do know in no particular order.

But I do have the sense of making progress, since every time I read a new text I notice a few words that I know I learned recently, so that is encouraging.

At the 3 year mark, I hope I'll have made some more progress...

[tongyan]

I haven't come across a topic dedicated to mandarin learners sharing their ups and downs in learning the language. So I hope this will start the ball rolling.

I've been learning Mandarin for the pass 3 years (on and off). One of my goals is to be able to read the newspapers (my benchmark of literacy). So I've been building my vocabulary base (characters, words, sayings) as well as grammar because that is key to understanding. It seems after all that hard work, I can only read about 60% of newspapers on average, with the occasional dictionary look up. And this is not consistent; what I mean is on a good day I can read nearly everything feeling happy and on another I realise that I don't understand everything that's being written. A check with chinese language books used by native chinese speakers reveals that my knowledge is only equivalent to that of a 8 year old's. I find this all rather depressing. Would be nice to hear what other learners are experiencing.

My opinion is that reading a newspaper is not a good benchmark of your literacy in Mandarin. Strictly speaking, I think of Mandarin as a spoken language and Chinese as the written language. Within a language, there are differences in the spoken and written form. These differences are even more pronounced in the case of Sinitic languages.

A newspaper may use a lot of shorthand, especially in headlines - one notable example is the shorthand name for many place names that many learners of Mandarin (including many native speakers) just cannot be expected to know. Case in point: 沪 for Shanghai or 穗 for Guangzhou

A newspaper may also use a lot of literary terms and intersperse into the text a lot of Classical Chinese or rarely used idioms, that a native speaker may be able to comprehend (or realize the meaning through the context). Again, many learners of Mandarin would not be able to.

Here in America, many Chinese kids born here can speak great Mandarin but are unable to read a newspaper. Furthermore, even if you read the newspaper out loud to them, they most likely still will not fully understand what the article is talking about.

You should probably just pat yourself on the back for being able to read 60% of the newspaper!

[YuanMeiHua]

I'm full of admiration for you being able to read 60% of a newspaper, calibre2001. That seems like an admirable level of success after 3 years of study, based on my own experience in learning to read Chinese.

I've been studying for about a year, but while I've taken some conversational Mandarin classes, learning to read has been largely on my own. Currently I'm attempting to read a novel which has already been translated into English, so I'm reading the English translation along with the Chinese text. I'm just happy that I can recognize enough characters to find the right point in the Chinese text and match it up with the same sentence in English.

If I eventually get to the point where I can read something without having to look up every second character, I'll feel successful.

[Yizheng]

My opinion is that reading a newspaper is not a good benchmark of your literacy in Mandarin. Strictly speaking, I think of Mandarin as a spoken language and Chinese as the written language. Within a language, there are differences in the spoken and written form. These differences are even more pronounced in the case of Sinitic languages.

A newspaper may use a lot of shorthand, especially in headlines - one notable example is the shorthand name for many place names that many learners of Mandarin (including many native speakers) just cannot be expected to know. Case in point: 沪 for Shanghai or 穗 for Guangzhou

A newspaper may also use a lot of literary terms and intersperse into the text a lot of Classical Chinese or rarely used idioms, that a native speaker may be able to comprehend (or realize the meaning through the context). Again, many learners of Mandarin would not be able to.

You should probably just pat yourself on the back for being able to read 60% of the newspaper!

I agree with Tongyan on this. Reading the Chinese newspapers is something with its specific difficulties for someone learning the language. It's also not just the shorthand examples like what Tongyan mentioned, and idioms etc, but the added layer of what I would call 'communist speak' which really loves shorthand anyway, all kinds of abbreviations, and creates a kind of distinctive style that you find in newspapers and official speak. (Russian and mainland Chinese have this incredibly similar style because of 'communist speak')

Probably deciding what to concentrate on depends on what your aim is in learning the language. You could learn to read the newspapers, but that is a specific kind of language, whereas literature, for example, is a different kind of language, and everyday spoken language is different again. So, I think the first thing is to decide what you want the language for - and then to concentrate your effort in the appropriate area. Also, understanding anything requires such a lot of background knowledge of the country, culture, history etc, so just reading in general on all that is very useful. The more background knowledge you have, the easier it is to understand what you will read in Chinese and be able to fill in the gaps.

[mandarin]

I haven't come across a topic dedicated to mandarin learners sharing their ups and downs in learning the language. So I hope this will start the ball rolling.

I've been learning Mandarin for the pass 3 years (on and off). One of my goals is to be able to read the newspapers (my benchmark of literacy). So I've been building my vocabulary base (characters, words, sayings) as well as grammar because that is key to understanding. It seems after all that hard work, I can only read about 60% of newspapers on average, with the occasional dictionary look up. And this is not consistent; what I mean is on a good day I can read nearly everything feeling happy and on another I realise that I don't understand everything that's being written. A check with chinese language books used by native chinese speakers reveals that my knowledge is only equivalent to that of a 8 year old's. I find this all rather depressing. Would be nice to hear what other learners are experiencing.

the written Chinese is a mixture of Mandarin and Classical Chinese which rarely occurs in daily speaking. but it does not mean that you need to begin with those sophisticated ancient texts, for those classical phrases appear in newspapers and common books are comparatively fixed and limited. Like every educated Chinese picking up these sophisticated words in classroom, it's better for a foreign learner to focus on special texts promoting his reading skills than on daily speaking. So I think you'd better get some reading textbooks focus on 书面语 understanding, which is probably the best way to promote reading ability in short term.

[calibre2001]

Hi all,

Wow it's nice to hear such encouraging words. Thanks people. The reason why I set newspapers as a benchmark is that I do believe it is reading material that is common enough to be read by native speakers. Newspapers also cover a very broad range of topics, so it's a good instant acid test. If I was given the UK Telegraph or NY Times, I'd definitely be able to read both without much problem. So I don't see why not for chinese. If one truly knows the language well enough, then all the minor details shouldnt affect things much.

I agree that focusing on a certain area helps. But I also found that reading widely to what extent possible really helps. Oh well back to the books...

But I'd like to hear from other learners as well on the difficulties they face.

[tongyan]

Hi all,

Wow it's nice to hear such encouraging words. Thanks people. The reason why I set newspapers as a benchmark is that I do believe it is reading material that is common enough to be read by native speakers. Newspapers also cover a very broad range of topics, so it's a good instant acid test. If I was given the UK Telegraph or NY Times, I'd definitely be able to read both without much problem. So I don't see why not for chinese. If one truly knows the language well enough, then all the minor details shouldnt affect things much.

As previously discussed, a Chinese newspaper is a very different animal from the NY Times. Although I agree that, generally, a newspaper should be reading material common enough to be read by native speakers - there is a specific type of style and vocabulary used in newspapers that are generally not used in every day spoken language and Chinese newspapers are notorious for its use of them. That's why people are impressed that you can read so much in a Chinese newspaper. I'm sure a lot of learners may be able to recognize many of the characters on the newspaper but are puzzled as to why they are used they way they are and wondering what they mean when placed in a certain position in a sentence...

To take an example from English-language newspapers, I was just browsing through some articles and I came upon the word 'slain' as in "Octogenarian found slain in acquaintance's residence" or something.

Imagine a person learning English and reading something like that in a newspaper. Here in the US, I don't believe 'slain' is a word used in regular speech (neither is octogenarian), but newspapers use these types of terms and conventions often. I would go so far as to say that many, if not most graduates of inner-city high schools in America would not recognize the words octogenarian and/or slain.

And that's only for a topic that is not overly technical. If a newspaper article were to (and they regularly do so) discuss the economy (talking about derivatives and naked shorts) or introducing new technology (micro SDHC or 3G vs EDGE) or talk about food/restaurants (amuse bouche and shiraz) then well, I think you get the point.

In any case, good luck and keep up the good work!

[YuanMeiHua]

But I'd like to hear from other learners as well on the difficulties they face.

You don't mention what method you're using to learn Chinese. Are you taking university courses or other classroom instruction?

As I mentioned above, I've had some conversational courses through a local college, but they are very cursory and casual. I'd like to enroll in a university course and have more intensive and structured study, but I'm the primary breadwinner in my family and I'm not sure I can fit it into my schedule or my budget.

I suffer from lack of feedback on my reading skills. I've been posting my translations of a primer on another forum, but the responses are eratic and I don't really know how fluent the respondents are as Chinese speakers/readers. The book itself didn't come with an English translation, so I don't know if I'm really getting all the nuances of the sentence structure.

[tongyan]

I suffer from lack of feedback on my reading skills. I've been posting my translations of a primer on another forum, but the responses are eratic and I don't really know how fluent the respondents are as Chinese speakers/readers. The book itself didn't come with an English translation, so I don't know if I'm really getting all the nuances of the sentence structure.

Why not post here? There are a plethora of fluent speakers/readers here, all of whom are ready and willing to give you feedback!

[calibre2001]

You don't mention what method you're using to learn Chinese. Are you taking university courses or other classroom instruction?

No classes. Just learning on my own. I do watch and listen to chinese shows whenever I can. I read some chinese everyday to keep it up. And I jot down new words/ sayings in a word document for future reference.

[General_Zhaoyun]

Hi all,

Wow it's nice to hear such encouraging words. Thanks people. The reason why I set newspapers as a benchmark is that I do believe it is reading material that is common enough to be read by native speakers. Newspapers also cover a very broad range of topics, so it's a good instant acid test. If I was given the UK Telegraph or NY Times, I'd definitely be able to read both without much problem. So I don't see why not for chinese. If one truly knows the language well enough, then all the minor details shouldnt affect things much.

I agree that focusing on a certain area helps. But I also found that reading widely to what extent possible really helps. Oh well back to the books...

But I'd like to hear from other learners as well on the difficulties they face.

While it's good to set newspaper as a benchmark, I would not recommend you as a learner of Chinese to try and master the 'reading' of newspaper, if you're not at an 'advanced stage'. Newspaper were generally factual writings on a broad number of topics (including modern and classical terms), but they contain vast number of vocabulary and terms from various subjects such as politics, economics, history, literature, science, technology, medicine etc. It would be a good tool to improve your vocabulary, but don't expect that it would improve your conversational ability, if you're still not there.

What I suggest is that you can try to read Chinese novels. Don't go for "hard-to-read literature" such as Hong Lou Meng, but instead go for contemporary novels you can find in Chinese bookstores. They are easier to read and can help you build up your vocabulary. They also contain large number of dialogues used in daily conversation, which will help you improve your conversational ability.

[ghostexorcist]

What I suggest is that you can try to read Chinese novels. Don't go for "hard-to-read literature" such as Hong Lou Meng, but instead go for contemporary novels you can find in Chinese bookstores. They are easier to read and can help you build up your vocabulary. They also contain large number of dialogues used in daily conversation, which will help you improve your conversational ability.

I haven't been learning the language for very long. I am currently going for an Asian Studies degree, but I've been trying to get all of my prerequisite classes out of the way first. The Chinese classes I have taken were outside of school and very basic stuff (daily phrases, colors, animals, numbers, family members, country names, body parts, etc.). My biggest problem is the tones. I have such a deep voice that it's hard for me to do the proper inflection. My Chinese teacher jokingly tells me I'm making excuses, but its a real problem. So I have to talk in a slightly higher voice in order to get the required sound. I really don't have any problems remembering the phrases themselves. I intend on going for a Bachelors of Science in Education with an emphasis on Chinese language. The actual degree I will be pursuing at a different school is called "Chinese Education." I talk about on this thread.

GZ, that is a really good idea. I have a novel called 铁臂金刀周侗传 (a prequel to both 說岳全傳 and 水浒传) that I can't wait to read. My spoken Chinese is far superior to my reading abilities. I can recognize some characters, just not enough to form a coherent sentence. I intended to use it as a reading aide when I first bought it several years ago. It will help me when I start my actual college-level language courses.

[tongyan]

My biggest problem is the tones. I have such a deep voice that it's hard for me to do the proper inflection. My Chinese teacher jokingly tells me I'm making excuses, but its a real problem. So I have to talk in a slightly higher voice in order to get the required sound.

I'm sorry buddy, but your teacher is right because you are making excuses. On a more serious note, your comment borders on ignorance and can be misinterpreted by some as racist. From what you wrote, are you implying that Chinese is a language that requires a high voice and/or there are no Chinese people with deep voices?
The tones are relative to each other... meaning your "high tone" words don't actually have to be high like falsetto high, they just have to be higher than how you pronounce your "lower" tone characters.