4 replies to this topic

[Hannibal27]

Hi everyone,

In antiquity the form and spirit governing civilian affairs would not be found in the military realm; those appropriate to the military realm would not be found in the civilian sphere. Thus virtue and righteousness did not transgress inappropriate realms. -The Methods of the Ssu-ma, translated by Ralph Sawyer

The Methods of the Ssu-ma is my second favorite military classic of ancient China; Sunzi's Art of War being first. What I like about this text is how it separates the civilian and military realms, as shown in the above quote.

Those that greatly excel in warfare use the foundation; next in greatness are those that employ the ends. Warfare is taking control of strategy, preserving the subtle. The foundation and the ends are only a question of [exploiting] the strategic balance of power [ch'uan] -The Methods of Ssu-ma, translated by Ralph Sawyer

This is one of my favorite quotes from the text.

What does this quote mean to you?

[General_Zhaoyun]

I have not read Sima Fa yet, and just wondering what the above quotes mean. The translation is really abstract and I don't quite understand.

"In antiquity the form and spirit governing civilian affairs would not be found in the military ream; those appropriate to the military realm would not be found in the civilian sphere. Thus virtue and righteousness did not transgress inappropriate realms. -The Methods of the Ssu-ma, translated by Ralph Sawyer"

Is this trying to say that virtue and righteousness are important to both civilian affairs and military?

Those that greatly excel in warfare use the foundation; next in greatness are those that employ the ends. Warfare is taking control of strategy, preserving the subtle. The foundation and the ends are only a question of [exploiting] the strategic balance of power [ch'uan] -The Methods of Ssu-ma, translated by Ralph Sawyer

I wonder what it means by "foundation" and 'ends"? What does it mean by 'taking control of strategy" and "preserve the subtitle" ?

[Hannibal27]

Is this trying to say that virtue and righteousness are important to both civilian affairs and military?

Virtue and righteousness is imperative in successful leadership. I believe the text is implying that virtue and righteousness in their definitions, assure the different forms(conduct, behaviour, etc) and spirit found in the civilian and military realms are kept separate; otherwise it wouldn't be virtuous or righteous.

I wonder what it means by "foundation" and 'ends"? What does it mean by 'taking control of strategy" and "preserve the subtitle" ?

The first chapter is titled, "Benevolence the Foundation".

In antiquity, taking benevolence as the foundation and employing righteousness to govern constituted "uprightness". However, when uprightness failed to attain the desired [moral and political] objectives, [they resorted to] authority [ch'uan]. Authority comes from warfare, not from harmony among men. -The Methods of Ssu-ma, translated by Ralph Sawyer

Regarding what is meant by "foundation" in the quote being questioned, I would say that the foundation is benevolence and nonviolent means(i.e. diplomacy) of achieving victory. The "ends" would refer to the use of authority; positioning the military, military force, etc.

Warfare is exercised when one wants to control another; bend one to their will. Taking control of strategy is doing what is necessary to preserve the state and impose your will so it is accepted. Preserving the subtle could refer to the Tao(Way).

[Hannibal27]

Warfare is taking control of strategy, preserving the subtle.

I was reading Sunzi's Art of War and a quote stood out in connection with the above;

Subtle! Subtle! It approaches the formless. Spiritual! Spiritual! It attains the soundless. -Sun Tzu, Art of War, translated by Ralph Sawyer

Now the Ssu-ma fa doesn't make reference to formlessness but does advocate changes in and secrecy/silence. Preserving the subtle could refer to the Way, formless, and spiritual.

Does anyone else have an opinion on this?

[Bao Pu]

Sima Fa 12:

古者，國容不入軍，軍容不入國。軍容入國則民德廢，國容入軍則民德弱。故在國言文而語溫，在朝恭以遜，修己以待人，不召不至，不問不言，難進易退。在軍抗而立，在行遂而果，介者不拜，兵車不式，城上不趨，危事不齒。故禮與法表裏也。文與武左右也。

"In antiquity the form and spirit governing civilian affairs would not be found in the military realm; those appropriate to the military realm would not be found in the civilian sphere. If the form and spirit (appropriate to the) military realm enter the civilian sphere, the Virtue of the people will decline. When the form and spirit (appropriate to the) civilian sphere enter the military realm, then the Virtue of the people will weaken. In the civilian sphere words are cultivated and speech languid. In court one is respectful and courteous and cultivates himself to serve others. Unsummoned, he does not step forth; unquestioned, he does not speak. It is difficult to advance but easy to withdraw. In the military realm one speaks directly and stands firm. Those wearing battle armor do not bow; those in war chariots need not observe the forms of propriety; those manning fortifications do not scurry. In times of danger one does not pay attention to seniority. Thus the civilian forms of behavior (Li) and the military standards (Fa) are like left and right." Sawyer, The Seven Military Classics of Ancient China p. 131-2

-- this is incorrect with regards to “antiquity” (e.g., Western Zhou period) but more truthful with regards to the Warring States period.