11 replies to this topic

[General_Zhaoyun]

There is no doubt that Confucius was the one who founded the School of thoughts known as "Confucianism" (Rujia 儒家）. However, before his era, the Chinese word for Confucianism "Ru 儒" had already existed, implying that some form of 'Confucianist' had already existed before Confucius.

I was reading the Chinese article "Origins of Confucianism" by Professor Xu Shan 徐山 (Department of Chinese Studies in Suzhou university), whereby he mentioned that "Confucianism originated from prehistoric reverence or worship of lightning god".
See the article at http://www.confuchin.....de qiyuan.htm

He explained it from etymology (i.e. historic origin of words) aspects of the Chinese character for Confucianism "Ru 儒" . In its initial form it was using the character "需". If one decipher the Shang oracle inscription for 需, one will realize that this characters formed by a "rain 雨" on top and a 'person 而' below



It reflected the "religious rites of a person worshipping the god of lightning in hope of getting more rain" .

According to Ciyuan 《辞源》 , the origin of the word "Ru 儒" is as follow:

"古代从巫、史、祝、卜中分化出来的人，也称术士，后泛指学者。"

Translated as "Ru are People who originated and came out of Shaman, History, Temple, Divinition, also known as Clergy, but later refers to Scholars".

This means that initially, the Confucianist were engaged in religious matters. They not only help recorded history, they were in charge of organizing funerals, religious worship etc. Since all these involved some form of religious rites, most of the Confucianists (Ru 儒) were people who know a great deal about rites. By Confucius time, it was not surprising that a lot of his teaching involves dealing with Zhou rites (Zhou Li 周礼). By Confucius time, Confucianist began to be associated with Scholars.

《周礼·天官·冢宰》："儒以道得民。"

注："儒，诸侯保氏有六艺以教民者。"疏："儒掌养国子以道德，故云以道得民，民亦谓学子也。"

Translated as :

Zhou Rites: The Confucianist used the 6 teachings (skills) to teach its people. The people are also known as students

《论语·雍也》："女为君子儒，无为小人儒！"其中的"儒"为"读书人"义。

Translated as:

Analects of Confucius: You should become a Gentlemen Confucianist, not a low despicable Confucianist.Here, Confucianist (RU) refers to Scholars or Students.

What do you think of this? Any comments are appreciated.

[Bao Pu]

Hi General,

There is no doubt that Confucius was the one who founded the School of thoughts known as "Confucianism" (Rujia 儒家）. However, before his era, the Chinese word for Confucianism "Ru 儒" had already existed, implying that some form of 'Confucianist' had already existed before Confucius.

Much modern scholarship that I have read calls into question the old ideas of a "Confucian School," "Daoist school," "Legalist School," etc. in pre-Han times. And many hesitate to translate Ru 儒 as "Confucian," precisely for the reason you mention: the Ru 儒 likely already existed in Confucius' time. Many prefer to translate it as "Classicist" or "Literati." They were indeed specialists in rites, music and (the accumulating) classical lore. There are many theories out there regarding to origin of the Ru, both by Chinese and Western scholars. See Eno's The Confucian Creation of Heaven, pp. 192- on Google Book HERE.

I was reading the Chinese article "Origins of Confucianism" by Professor Xu Shan 徐山 (Department of Chinese Studies in Suzhou university), whereby he mentioned that "Confucianism originated from prehistoric reverence or worship of lightning god". See the article at http://www.confuchin.....de qiyuan.htm

He explained it from etymology (i.e. historic origin of words) aspects of the Chinese character for Confucianism "Ru 儒" . In its initial form it was using the character "需". If one decipher the Shang oracle inscription for 需, one will realize that this characters formed by a "rain 雨" on top and a 'person 而' below



It reflected the "religious rites of a person worshipping the god of lightning in hope of getting more rain" .

The graph above is Zhou Bronze (Jinwen) script, not Oracle Bone script (Jiaguwen). Are we sure that the character 需 in the Shang OBI is 儒? is it possible it was 繻? 孺? 濡? 嚅? 襦? 㹘? 燸? 臑? 醹? 鱬? 鑐? 嬬? 蠕? Obviously, 需 serves as a phonetic in these characters, so "rain 雨 above a person 而/天/大" might not be that helpful for explaining the meaning of these characters, including 儒. But it seems plausible to me that it might have its origins in some sort of ritualist involved with the rain.

This means that initially, the Confucianist were engaged in religious matters. They not only help recorded history, they were in charge of organizing funerals, religious worship etc. Since all these involved some form of religious rites, most of the Confucianists (Ru 儒) were people who know a great deal about rites. By Confucius time, it was not surprising that a lot of his teaching involves dealing with Zhou rites (Zhou Li 周礼). By Confucius time, Confucianist began to be associated with Scholars.

Yes.

[Howard Fu]

This means that initially, the Confucianist were engaged in religious matters. They not only help recorded history, they were in charge of organizing funerals, religious worship etc. Since all these involved some form of religious rites, most of the Confucianists (Ru 儒) were people who know a great deal about rites. By Confucius time, it was not surprising that a lot of his teaching involves dealing with Zhou rites (Zhou Li 周礼). By Confucius time, Confucianist began to be associated with Scholars.[size=2]

Spring and Autumn is a time of "礼崩乐坏". Ru's social status declined a lot during this time. By the time of warring states, Ru had become a profession who had to make a living on performing rituals for the rich.

Mozi had some acerbic critics of Ru's behavior in <墨子.非儒下>

"且夫繁飾禮樂以淫人，久喪偽哀以謾親，立命緩貧而高浩居，倍本棄事而安怠傲，貪於飲食，惰於作務，陷於饑寒，危於凍餒，無以違之。是若人氣，鼸鼠藏，而羝羊視，賁彘起。君子笑之，怒曰：「散人，焉知良儒！」夫夏乞麥禾，五穀既收，大喪是隨，子姓皆從，得厭飲食。畢治數喪，足以至矣。因人之家翠以為富人有喪，乃大說喜，曰：「此衣食之端也！」"

The graph above is Zhou Bronze (Jinwen) script, not Oracle Bone script (Jiaguwen)

I feel very curious, why there was no writings of Shang left. It's usually believed China's recorded history began at 842BC in Zhou, but Shang 30 king's lineage in Shiji has been confirmed by oracle bones. If Shang didn't keep their own records, where did Sima Qian get his information?

It's hard to imagine why Shang people had a pretty advanced writing system but they didn't feel they need to write down anything except when consulting oracles. Is it possible after Zhou conquered Shang they destroyed all written records like Qin Shihuang?

[Bao Pu]

Spring and Autumn is a time of "礼崩乐坏". Ru's social status declined a lot during this time. By the time of warring states, Ru had become a profession who had to make a living on performing rituals for the rich.

Mozi had some acerbic critics of Ru's behavior in <墨子.非儒下>

"且夫繁飾禮樂以淫人，久喪偽哀以謾親，立命緩貧而高浩居，倍本棄事而安怠傲，貪於飲食，惰於作務，陷於饑寒，危於凍餒，無以違之。是若人氣，鼸鼠藏，而羝羊視，賁彘起。君子笑之，怒曰：「散人，焉知良儒！」夫夏乞麥禾，五穀既收，大喪是隨，子姓皆從，得厭飲食。畢治數喪，足以至矣。因人之家翠以為富人有喪，乃大說喜，曰：「此衣食之端也！」"

That's a good point Howard

I feel very curious, why there was no writings of Shang left. It's usually believed China's recorded history began at 842BC in Zhou, but Shang 30 king's lineage in Shiji has been confirmed by oracle bones. If Shang didn't keep their own records, where did Sima Qian get his information? It's hard to imagine why Shang people had a pretty advanced writing system but they didn't feel they need to write down anything except when consulting oracles. Is it possible after Zhou conquered Shang they destroyed all written records like Qin Shihuang?

It's possible, but unlikely, imo. It is generally believed that the Shang people wrote on bamboo and wood. But these materials have had another 1000 years to decay. We haven't found any Shang tombs with surviving written materials, other than bronze vessels and bells (which have very little engraved on them). The oldest written materials we've found (bamboo slips) date from the Warring States period (475-221).

[Howard Fu]

It's possible, but unlikely, imo. It is generally believed that the Shang people wrote on bamboo and wood. But these materials have had another 1000 years to decay. We haven't found any Shang tombs with surviving written materials, other than bronze vessels and bells (which have very little engraved on them). The oldest written materials we've found (bamboo slips) date from the Warring States period (475-221).

Very helpful reply! Thanks!
But it still doesn't solve my question. We don't have any books attributed to Shang authors. Is it because Shang people so backward they didn't write any books? I'm very suspicious of it. We know Shang considered Zhou a barbarian state. It means Zhou was culturally more backward than Shang. Zhou era bronze vessels were much less impressive in size and sophiscation than Shang. The ruin of Yin was about 36 square kilometers, which was far larger than any city of Zhou time. Mengzi said, 三里之城,七里之郭. Zhao She said, 古者，四海之内分为万国。城虽大，无过三百丈者，火虽众，无过三千家者。 The ruins of Haojing was less impressive compared to Yin too.

[Bao Pu]

I was just reading Mark Csikszentmihalyi's Material Virtue. Some relevant points he makes:

"… originally seems to have described a social group who made a living by applying their knowledge of archaic cultural forms. The use of that term in writing attributed to Kongzi himself suggests that this was a category already present in the society into which he was born. In the Analects, he tells his disciple Zixia 子夏 that: 女為君子儒 無為小人儒也 "You should be a gentleman Ru, not a petty person Ru."4 An early reference to Ru writings ("Ru shu" 儒書) appears in the Zuo commentary to an event in the Spring and Autumn dated to the summer of the 21st year of the reign of Duke Ai 哀 of Kongzi's home state of Lu.5 The Kongzi of the Analects, then, appears to have self-consciously identified himself with a Ru tradition, but also sought to differentiate the "gentleman's" Ru from that of the "petty person."6 More generally, Kongzi is often portrayed not as a founder but as a transmitter and internal critic of existing traditions, a nuance that is obliterated by the translation of Ru as 'Confucian.'" (p. 15-16) But he notes that Robert Eno may be right in his "Robert Eno's The Confucian Creation of Heaven: Philosophy and the Defense of Ritual Mastery argues that the term Ru does not appear prior to the time of Kongzi, and, in effect, that there was no earlier self-conscious Ru tradition (1990, 190-2)." (16 n6) Csikszentmihalyi also mentions Zhang Taiyan 章太炎 (1869-1936) who had the theory that the Ru originated from a shamanic tradition, Hu Shi 胡適 (1891-1962) who believed the Ru were "members of the displaced Yin 殷 aristocracy who parlayed their knowledge of ritual and ceremony into an educational role under the new Zhou Dynasty polity," Huang Kan 皇侃 (488-545) who believed Ru derived from Ru 濡 "moisten," (17) and Nicholas Zufferey has noted that while there is insufficient evidence to definitively characterize their origins, the Ru "were the ancestors of Confucius, not the other way round." (18)

[LYY]

I was just reading Mark Csikszentmihalyi's Material Virtue. Some relevant points he makes:

"… originally seems to have described a social group who made a living by applying their knowledge of archaic cultural forms. The use of that term in writing attributed to Kongzi himself suggests that this was a category already present in the society into which he was born. In the Analects, he tells his disciple Zixia 子夏 that: 女為君子儒 無為小人儒也 "You should be a gentleman Ru, not a petty person Ru."4 An early reference to Ru writings ("Ru shu" 儒書) appears in the Zuo commentary to an event in the Spring and Autumn dated to the summer of the 21st year of the reign of Duke Ai 哀 of Kongzi's home state of Lu.5 The Kongzi of the Analects, then, appears to have self-consciously identified himself with a Ru tradition, but also sought to differentiate the "gentleman's" Ru from that of the "petty person."6 More generally, Kongzi is often portrayed not as a founder but as a transmitter and internal critic of existing traditions, a nuance that is obliterated by the translation of Ru as 'Confucian.'" (p. 15-16) But he notes that Robert Eno may be right in his "Robert Eno's The Confucian Creation of Heaven: Philosophy and the Defense of Ritual Mastery argues that the term Ru does not appear prior to the time of Kongzi, and, in effect, that there was no earlier self-conscious Ru tradition (1990, 190-2)." (16 n6) Csikszentmihalyi also mentions Zhang Taiyan 章太炎 (1869-1936) who had the theory that the Ru originated from a shamanic tradition, Hu Shi 胡適 (1891-1962) who believed the Ru were "members of the displaced Yin 殷 aristocracy who parlayed their knowledge of ritual and ceremony into an educational role under the new Zhou Dynasty polity," Huang Kan 皇侃 (488-545) who believed Ru derived from Ru 濡 "moisten," (17) and Nicholas Zufferey has noted that while there is insufficient evidence to definitively characterize their origins, the Ru "were the ancestors of Confucius, not the other way round." (18)

Hexagram 22 (贲), Line 3

九三，贲如，濡如，永贞吉。
《象》曰：“永贞之吉”，终莫之陵也。

In Yijing, Hexagram 22 is 贲, translated as beauty (displayed).
IMO, Hexagram 22 line 3, 濡 could render the implication of a form of intrinsic beauty (prevalent at that point of time) that stands out against the challenge of time.

Just my 2cents ...

[LYY]

Hexagram 22 (贲), Line 3

九三，贲如，濡如，永贞吉。
《象》曰：“永贞之吉”，终莫之陵也。

In Yijing, Hexagram 22 is 贲, translated as beauty (displayed).
IMO, Hexagram 22 line 3, 濡 could render the implication of a form of intrinsic beauty (prevalent at that point of time) that stands out against the challenge of time.

Just my 2cents ...

The conventional translation of 濡 as "moisten" is puzzling because it just can't form any connection the image (象) of 莫之陵.

[Bao Pu]

The conventional translation of 濡 as "moisten" is puzzling because it just can't form any connection the image (象) of 莫之陵.

Hi,

See here for a long list of passages from Classical texts that use the character 濡:
http://chinese.dstur....pl...;char=æ¿¡

[Sunyata]

That's a good point Howard



It's possible, but unlikely, imo. It is generally believed that the Shang people wrote on bamboo and wood. But these materials have had another 1000 years to decay. We haven't found any Shang tombs with surviving written materials, other than bronze vessels and bells (which have very little engraved on them). The oldest written materials we've found (bamboo slips) date from the Warring States period (475-221).

Hi, I'm just going on my memory from classes a few years ago...

Shang didn't leave behind any kind of text in full, but there are parts of 《尚》(The Classic of Books??)that are taken from the Shang Dynasty, which essentially were records of court meetings. There are two versions of the classic that exist (there are two versions that were past down, one written in the Han character as passed down by Fu Sheng, and another version found in the old house of Confucius which was written in PreQin characters, therefore difficult for the scholars of that time to interpret. It's said the version passed down by Fu Sheng is more accurate due to the political situation durin the Han Dynasty), scholars have deciphered which version is accurate and which sections may belong to the Shang Dynasty based on the style of writing. Even in the Book of Songs《诗经》there are some poems that reflect the anguish of the people of Shang after being defeated by incoming Zhou Dynasty, again sparse and few in between. In effect some of the writings do exist but in sections, so far as I know there are no full texts that exist from the Shang Dynasty, I would guess that many of the annals from the Zhou Dynasty would'nt exist if it weren't for the work of Confucius and his disciples and their disciples of later generations. What we see of the Spring and Autumn Annals, Book of Songs were compiled by Confucius and edited, if I remember correctly some scholars suggest there may have been over 1000 poems in the Book of Songs. Sorry I can't be more accurate and use actual text to explain, but that's what I remember from classes and some reading on the history of the classics.

Don't have much to say on the origins of Confucianism other than Confucius is said to think of himself as holding on to and passing down the Zhou Culture.

[Howard Fu]

My guess is some books that traditionally attributed to Wen Wang and Zhou Gong originated from Shang or even earlier, like I Ching and Nine Chapters of Arithmetics.

[Bao Pu]

Hi, I'm just going on my memory from classes a few years ago...

Shang didn't leave behind any kind of text in full, but there are parts of 《尚》(The Classic of Books??)that are taken from the Shang Dynasty, which essentially were records of court meetings. There are two versions of the classic that exist (there are two versions that were past down, one written in the Han character as passed down by Fu Sheng, and another version found in the old house of Confucius which was written in PreQin characters, therefore difficult for the scholars of that time to interpret. It's said the version passed down by Fu Sheng is more accurate due to the political situation durin the Han Dynasty), scholars have deciphered which version is accurate and which sections may belong to the Shang Dynasty based on the style of writing. Even in the Book of Songs《诗经》there are some poems that reflect the anguish of the people of Shang after being defeated by incoming Zhou Dynasty, again sparse and few in between. In effect some of the writings do exist but in sections, so far as I know there are no full texts that exist from the Shang Dynasty, I would guess that many of the annals from the Zhou Dynasty would'nt exist if it weren't for the work of Confucius and his disciples and their disciples of later generations. What we see of the Spring and Autumn Annals, Book of Songs were compiled by Confucius and edited, if I remember correctly some scholars suggest there may have been over 1000 poems in the Book of Songs. Sorry I can't be more accurate and use actual text to explain, but that's what I remember from classes and some reading on the history of the classics.

Don't have much to say on the origins of Confucianism other than Confucius is said to think of himself as holding on to and passing down the Zhou Culture.

Hi Sunyata,

It seems your teacher is still teaching the traditional story. I'm afraid there aren't many scholars (East or West) who believe that anymore. I'm surprised there are some still teaching it. Other than the bronze inscriptions, the earliest textual material we have is several of the chapters of the Shangshu (尚書/书), (but not any of the ones purporting to record events of the Shang period or earlier), and some of the songs in the Shijing (in the Zhou Hymns 頌/颂 section). I believe this material dates from the late Western Zhou period, although some scholars believe some of it dates from the early Western Zhou. And I can't think of any scholars (who specialize in the pre-Han era classics) who believe Confucius had anything to do with editing or writing any of the classics.