28 replies to this topic

[Juchechosunmanse]

Wow, wait! who said anything about Hongshan culture was Proto-Korean?
I was referring to Yellow river culture and Hongshan.
Don't jump ahead. I can sense the communist style of accusation from you.

Did Hongshan culture came from Yellow river culture?

If that's not what you intended to say, how do you explain this?

Archaeological evidence doesn't lie, are you going to forget about Hongshan culture which is at least 1000 years older than Yellow river culture, and what about Dolmens and Menhirs that still standing at Korean peninsula and Southern Manchuria? Are you going to say these are all came from ancient cultures of China?

SNK, what are you trying to say here? If Hongshan had nothing to do with Korea, why did you bring it up in the first place? And according to who Hongshan culture was at least 1000 years older than Yellow river culture?

[Juchechosunmanse]

According to experts and scholars myths and legends are just another exaggeration of some events, so it might be not seen logical because it is myths after all, told by mouth to mouth without any written records. But important enough to included in early human history because there was no records before creation of writing system. Bible is widely excepted as Myth/legend, so are you going to de-credit them too?

I think nobody is discrediting Gochosun here, call it Gochosun or whatever, I think the consensus is some sort of proto-Korean tribes/culture/civilization did exist. It is just that Tangun himself might not.

Gojoseon is just another name given to tribal factions that purposely ruled parts of Liaodong and Korean peninsula, I wouldn't say it was empire, it was after all just another collection of state like kingdoms, possibly more considering Gojoseon history is very long. Most archaeological experts do agreed according to what various texts said about Gojoseon.

What do you mean Gochosun was a collection of state like kingdoms? What are the criteria for "state-like", I am wondering?

Same for Mongols, Khitans, Jurchens and Manchu who occupied parts of China, and Germanic & Hunnic tribes occupied Roman Empire. I take it, you like to deliberately dis-credits others who occupied them.

Of course they did and left their respective marks on China and the Roman Empire. Who is here to deny that?

or what about that Nurhaci's myth or Buddha myth? are they all lies?

Both Buddha and Nurhaci were real human beings that lived and breathed. What myth?

[WangGeon]

The Germanic conquests are paralleled by the Buyeo conquests in Korea, and these conquests led to the foundation of both nations.

@Wayne
Actually, I have to agree with SNK_1408 in problematizing this statement.

Egami suggested that warlike northern peoples (perhaps Buyeo or related to Buyeo) migrated through the Korean peninsula and conquered Japan. Of course, there still isn't definitive evidence of an "invasion" while archeology of the Han River Basin and the western Gyeongsang region (former Gaya) have distinctive northern-style artifacts suggesting the possibility of migrations. It can be speculated that the remarkably sudden appearance of a warrior culture in Yayoi Japan (in contrast with the less warlike Jomon cultures) signifies that the Japanese archipelago was conquered by these mainland peoples, but then again, it could simply have been immigration at work. Likewise, the appearance of northern-derived artifacts in southern Korea likely means either cultural integration or migration. Buyeo was a close ally of various Chinese states (as it counterbalanced the restless Goguryeo), but there's no specific mentioning of Buyeo peoples "conquering" other precursor peoples of the Korean peninsula while it is noted that cultural similarities were apparent.

There are some theories that assert that Goguryeo and Baekje were ruled by Buyeo-origin elites; the founding myths of both kingdoms claim specifically Buyeo heritage and the northern affinities in both Goguryeo and Baekje suggest that there may be some merit to claims of Buyeo origins.

And regarding incorporation of myth and history, myth does get incorporated in histories of Western nations at the popular level. Arguably, it's also done in US history courses; various myths are associated with our country's "founding fathers" to make them appear more virtuous (George Washington and the cherry tree, for example) as a means to glorify the nation. I certainly remember being presented these quasi-mythical tales as being truthful during my elementary school years. These myths are taught in schools, but of course they're frequently problematized and debated intellectually; similarly, Korean scholars continuously debate over the validity of certain myths in relation to Korean early history.

do not feel that I should be so ashamed of the nomad invasions of China that I have to discredit others.

By the way, Wayne, are you ethnic Chinese by any chance?

I think nobody is discrediting Gochosun here, call it Gochosun or whatever, I think the consensus is some sort of proto-Korean tribes/culture/civilization did exist. It is just that Tangun himself might not.

@Juchechosunmanse
"Dangun-wanggeom" was possibly a leader title and may not actually have been an actual person. I have a translation of a founding myth in which "Dangun" functions more as a title than a name; I'll have to see if I still have it. There are variations of the Dangun myth, too; it's not certain which ones were the most common so most would like to assume that the 2333 BCE version had more authority. Even if myths are exaggerated, there still is some information we can glean from them, which is why they attract some attention from historians and archeologists. Of course, finding the remains of a walled-town doesn't automatically mean that it's Asadal any more than finding remains of pallisade walls automatically meaning that it's Camelot (interestingly but not supririsingly, even European intellectuals are invested in finding evidences of their Camelots or Edens). Chinese histories are used to confirm things, but they too present problems as the Chinese historians were certainly not ethnographers, even if some were quite astute.

What do you mean Gochosun was a collection of state like kingdoms? What are the criteria for "state-like", I am wondering?

Guo/Guk is a pretty unusually vague term. Mostly it's understood to mean "state." But from what we have in the archeological record it seems that in terms of political order, Gojoseon consisted of affiliated chiefdoms that the Chinese referred to loosely as "states."

Edited by WangGeon, 26 June 2009 - 07:41 PM.

[SNK_1408]

I think nobody is discrediting Gochosun here, call it Gochosun or whatever, I think the consensus is some sort of proto-Korean tribes/culture/civilization did exist. It is just that Tangun himself might not.

What do you mean Gochosun was a collection of state like kingdoms? What are the criteria for "state-like", I am wondering?

Of course they did and left their respective marks on China and the Roman Empire. Who is here to deny that?

Both Buddha and Nurhaci were real human beings that lived and breathed. What myth?

I'm surprise that you claimed Dangun is some sort of made of c**p, well if these archaeological evidence does makes some sense about existence of some Proto-Korean civilization then myth of Dangun is some what fits into the logic. Btw, Dangun was not actual human, he was half supernatural being, which most founding myths of all important rulers have some kind of attachment to "heavenly being". I'm not denying Dangun character is the myth, I'm saying if archaeological proofs does fits into founding myth of Korea then it's pretty much valid proof. Also, how many Danguns were there, Dangun was just title for ruler, like "King", meaning it wasn't just person's name.

Just look at Gojoseon's long history 2333 BC–108 BC, do you think there was just one big tribe/clan or kingdom like state?
The name implies to collection of ancient Proto-Korean period, nothing more. And Dolmens and menhirs and other bronze wares shows the evidence of advanced culture did existed as described from Gojoseon periods.

You did made strong remarks about how Roman & Han influenced others not other way around. If you includes all other non Romans and Chinese rules, you can get an idea about how others influenced them too.

I was referring to birth myth about Buddha and Nurhaci, as you said they were real people but they do have very strange birth stories, which I called it "myth".

SNK, what are you trying to say here? If Hongshan had nothing to do with Korea, why did you bring it up in the first place? And according to who Hongshan culture was at least 1000 years older than Yellow river culture?

http://en.wikipedia....ltures_of_China

Try locating where was Hongshan culture was discovered.

Edited by SNK_1408, 28 June 2009 - 07:39 PM.

[SNK_1408]

According to experts and scholars myths and legends are just another exaggeration of some events, so it might be not seen logical because it is myths after all, told by mouth to mouth without any written records. But important enough to included in early human history because there was no records before creation of writing system. Bible is widely excepted as Myth/legend, so are you going to de-credit them too?

My answer : Bible is part legend and part fact. It cannot be taken as a totally reliable historical record, but as one of many points of references when we research into history. By the way, when I say 'Biblical truth' I am using a metaphor. I agree on the possibility that some myths and legends could be exaggerations of events. But I would disagree in taking it as a whole truth because there are some elements which might not be true.

Gojoseon is just another name given to tribal factions that purposely ruled parts of Liaodong and Korean peninsula, I wouldn't say it was empire, it was after all just another collection of state like kingdoms, possibly more considering Gojoseon history is very long. Most archaeological experts do agreed according to what various texts said about Gojoseon.
Who knows these Dolmens and Menhirs were belongs to different culture. This is why Gojoseon is often labeled as "myth", well let's say it's myth with archaeological proofs. I think it's more like Bible to me, considering what Bible told became true after modern archaeologists discovered real archaeological proofs. Good enough to included in history.

My answer : I am trying to find out more about Gojoseon. I think your collection of states is believeable, but not empire like some sources on the internet say. By the way, the Bible is historically unreliable on many aspects. It is anachronistic and embellished.


The Romans occupied part of their country, just as the Han did in Korea, and both invaders left some form of influence
Same for Mongols, Khitans, Jurchens and Manchu who occupied parts of China, and Germanic & Hunnic tribes occupied Roman Empire. I take it, you like to deliberately dis-credits others who occupied them.

My answer : I know all these, I also see a parallel between the rise and fall of the Roman and Han empires. But in my thread I am trying to specifically address the Wikipedia's narration of ancient Korea. I already know sufficiently about the impact of the nomadic invasions of China and Rome, and thus did not talk about them. I see nothing to discredit about the nomads and their conquests. Its the way of things. I do not feel that I should be so ashamed of the nomad invasions of China that I have to discredit others. Its nobody's fault. Just survival of the fittest. The invaders too influenced their conquered territories in ways that are both positive and negative. I believe that to understand the whole truth, one has to be detached and impartial in judgement.

Also, where was that Buyeo conquests in Korea? you mean Goguryeo and Baekje? They weren't Buyeo rulers, they were another clans off shoot from Buyeo tribes. What about Shilla? aren't their founding myth similar to Baekje & Goguryeo as well? or what about that Nurhaci's myth or Buddha myth? are they all lies?

My answer : Doesn't clans off-shoot from Buyeo tribes indicate that they are also of the same ethnicity? I do not care about founding myths, whether Chinese, Korean or Japanese. To me they are of no historical value besides sometimes offering some clues to help us see the true picture. No sensible historian would ever believe in Nurhaci's myth. Buddha's life itself is shrouded in mystery, and many myths have been interwoven with facts. According to my limited knowledge, historians are still not very clear if Shilla belong to the same Tungus ethnicity as Baekje and Goguryeo. It could well be.


I am a Minimalist when it comes to ancient history. Thus my rejection of myths as history in general.

OK, but you've made it sound like Buyeo made conquest of Korea.
Off shoot clans from Buyeo can't be classified as "Buyeo" since they've founded new states before conquering rest of Korean peninsula. Btw, Buyeo tribes are just another off shoot tribes from another tribes too.

Well, before creation of Buyeo and others, they were all belonged to proto-Korean speaking tribes.
Not just Shilla, Baekje and Goguryeo all had some Tungus connections.

Good examples, before adoption of Buddhism as main state's religion, these three kingdoms had something called Shindang, it was another Shamanic shrines. Meaning they were just another off shoot tribes from Tungus related group.

Even modern Korean people's DNA revealed they are mixed people from Manchuria and Tungus related people as well as other tribes at Korean peninsula.

[Juchechosunmanse]

I'm surprise that you claimed Dangun is some sort of made of c**p, well if these archaeological evidence does makes some sense about existence of some Proto-Korean civilization then myth of Dangun is some what fits into the logic. Btw, Dangun was not actual human, he was half supernatural being, which most founding myths of all important rulers have some kind of attachment to "heavenly being". I'm not denying Dangun character is the myth, I'm saying if archaeological proofs does fits into founding myth of Korea then it's pretty much valid proof. Also, how many Danguns were there, Dangun was just title for ruler, like "King", meaning it wasn't just person's name.

Just look at Gojoseon's long history 2333 BC–108 BC, do you think there was just one big tribe/clan or kingdom like state?
The name implies to collection of ancient Proto-Korean period, nothing more. And Dolmens and menhirs and other bronze wares shows the evidence of advanced culture did existed as described from Gojoseon periods.

You did made strong remarks about how Roman & Han influenced others not other way around. If you includes all other non Romans and Chinese rules, you can get an idea about how others influenced them too.

I was referring to birth myth about Buddha and Nurhaci, as you said they were real people but they do have very strange birth stories, which I called it "myth".

I really have no idea what your point is. Did I say Tangun was "some sort of made of c**p"? I merely pointed out that he was just a myth, most likely not a real person, like the Chinese Huangdi. And I find the part about Tangun founding Korea in 2333 BC ridiculous. They even pinpointed the year with this kind of detail and accuracy, wow.

I have never denied or hesitated to say that ancient "barbarians" have impacted Rome and China in many ways. It is a FACT. The question is, can you deal with the FACT that the Greeks/Romans/Chinese have impacted the surrounding peoples in many ways?

http://en.wikipedia....ltures_of_China

Try locating where was Hongshan culture was discovered.

"Inner Mongolia, Liaoning, and Hebei"

Which means? They are proto-Korean? Why?

[Juchechosunmanse]

Btw, Buyeo tribes are just another off shoot tribes from another tribes too.

Out of curiosity, what were those other tribes that Buyeo came out of?

[WangGeon]

And I find the part about Tangun founding Korea in 2333 BC ridiculous. They even pinpointed the year with this kind of detail and accuracy, wow.

If I recall correctly, the usage of that date is based on some particular folklore that posits Dangun as a contemporary of one of the mythical Chinese emperors, which is why there is such a precise date. It's obviously myth, but I think the selection of specific dates in Chinese folklore also correlated with astrology and concepts of calendrical cycles, so they're not arbitrarily chosen. What we know from the selection of the Samguk Yusa date is that the early recorders of myths were well aware of these aspects.

As I mentioned in a previous post, there are several other variants of the Dangun myth and the 2333 BCE date only belongs to a particular well-known version.

[SNK_1408]

I really have no idea what your point is. Did I say Tangun was "some sort of made of c**p"? I merely pointed out that he was just a myth, most likely not a real person, like the Chinese Huangdi. And I find the part about Tangun founding Korea in 2333 BC ridiculous. They even pinpointed the year with this kind of detail and accuracy, wow.

"Inner Mongolia, Liaoning, and Hebei"

Which means? They are proto-Korean? Why?

Dangun's 2333BC may not be the accurate date but it's sit right after some Dolmens & menhirs, as some of them dating back to 6,000 years and beyond.

Many ancient Proto-Korean tribes are originated from these regions.

[Juchechosunmanse]

Many ancient Proto-Korean tribes are originated from these regions.

Hebei?

Yes, some proto-Korean tribes were known to have occupied what is now part of Liaoning and perhaps Inner Mongolia. However, that alone is not decisive enough to say Hongshan culture had anything to do with the proto-Koreans. Have they found some similarities from the Hongshan relics pointing to the proto-Koreans, I wonder?

[WangGeon]

Proto-Koreans in Hebei? Haven't heard or read of that before. At most, in the readings I've done so far, Joseon's heartland was more around the region stretching from Liaoning to present-day Hwanghae in North Korea. According to the National Museum of Korea, it is surmised that the commonality of Liaoning-type "mandolin" shaped daggers, Misongri pottery, and dolmens give an indication of the extent of Gojoseon's cultural sphere, which again translates to being Liaoning to Hwanghae.

[SNK_1408]

Hebei?

Yes, some proto-Korean tribes were known to have occupied what is now part of Liaoning and perhaps Inner Mongolia. However, that alone is not decisive enough to say Hongshan culture had anything to do with the proto-Koreans. Have they found some similarities from the Hongshan relics pointing to the proto-Koreans, I wonder?

Location of Hongshan culture:

Hongshan sites have been found in an area stretching from Inner Mongolia to Liaoning and Hebei, and dated from about 4700 BC to 2900 BC.

Wikipedia

Similarity? yes there is
http://www.sino-plat...oric_china.html

An additional complicating factor in situating the Hongshan in a spatio-temporal framework is that several features of Hongshan demonstrate continuity with earlier sites in Liaoning province. For example, the majority of the pottery vessels is not painted, but follows the rocker-stamped beaker tradition which had flourished in Liaoning continuously at least since 6000 B.C. (Fig. 2). This pottery tradition covered a wide territory, from the Peiligang and Cishan cultures in Hebei province to the south of Hongshan and north to Jilin province, as well as being arguably related to the Chulmun culture on the western side of the Korean peninsula (Nelson 1990).

Some pictures of ancient Korean relics (that appears similar to Liao river culture)
http://www.animalpic...hp?2007/0909-01

Cradle of East Asian civilizations


Did I say anything about Hongshan culture was Proto-Korean?, rather Proto-Korean civ was influenced from it.
Here is another map showing where Hongshan culture existed:


Another with extension of where Hongshan relics were discovered from:

[Wayne]

Did I say anything about Hongshan culture was Proto-Korean?, rather Proto-Korean civ was influenced from it.

Can we have a definition of 'Civilization' vs 'Culture' please, and what distinguishes one from the other? Thanks!

[Juchechosunmanse]

Did I say anything about Hongshan culture was Proto-Korean?, rather Proto-Korean civ was influenced from it.
Here is another map showing where Hongshan culture existed:

That's very possible, perhaps in the same way Shang culture was influenced by Hongshan.